Chuck Patton talks Justice League Detroit

I've had a long-standing fascination with the Detroit Era of the Justice League of America for the last two decades now. They were a bit of an oddity as far as Justice League rosters went; while the Justice League typically contained an all-star cast of well-established characters (ex: Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Green Lantern, Flash, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Green Arrow, Hawkman, etc), this new iteration consisted of four unknown characters combined with a few lesser-known former Justice League members.

Looking back, it's hard to believe that the Detroit Era of the JLA ran for almost two and half years (from July 1984's JLA Annual #2 to April 1987's JLA #261). It's even more surprising how the team was disbanded -- not walking into the sunset with plans for reuniting someday when the world might need them again, but destroyed by a malevolent Justice League villain. To some extent, it was a very cruel ending to a team who were meant to bring a rejuvenated feel to the JLA.

We reached out to JLA artist and Justice League Detroit co-creator, Chuck Patton, with a few questions about his work on this era of the JLA and he was incredibly generous with his time and answered ALL of our questions in depth. We're very proud to publish this interview. Enjoy.

Introducing the new Justice League Detroit!
Justice League of America Annual #2 (1984). Cover illustrated by Chuck Patton and inked by Dick Giordano. 

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Justin: You had been illustrating Justice League of America for about a year prior to the Justice League Detroit 'revamp'. What was the discussion like with editorial that brought on Justice League Detroit? Who initially suggested a NEW Justice League team for the book?

Chuck Patton: I think it was Len Wein who ultimately decided that it was time for a change in the JLA, especially when all of the other major DC books started to crack under the weight of each other’s differing storylines and changes in continuity. Also, with [writer] Gerry Conway being unsure about continuing on the book, it left the door open for a new direction, except nobody rushed in to take the job. I believe Alan Gold didn’t come in as editor until after the decision to revamp JLA had begun, but I could be wrong.

The covers of Justice League of America v1 issues #233, 234, 235 and 236. Illustrated by Chuck Patton and Dick Giordano.

Justin: In the letter column of Justice League of America Annual #2 (1984), editor Alan Gold had specifically mentioned that 2 characters from the new Justice League Detroit roster were 100% yours: Vibe and Gypsy. How did that come about? Were Vibe and Gypsy created 'on the fly'? Or were both of these characters sitting around in your head for a while? Were they inspired by any real-life people you knew (celebrities or friends)?

I also just wanted to mention that the quartet covers (issues #233, 234, 235 and 236) was a brilliant idea, and I hadn't realized they were meant to be joined together until many many years after I'd owned them. (While 'joined comic book covers' were somewhat of an everyday occurrence in the nineties, it was still rather unheard of in the early eighties.)

Chuck: It was definitely a 50/50 collaboration. And we did do it on the fly—over a long lunch at a great lil’ French restaurant in Sherman Oaks. Gerry strongly felt that a new 'JLA' needed a younger, hipper roster to reflect the times, but most important, have little to no connection with the then-current DC roster and more freedom. I enthusiastically agreed with him, wanting to capture the same youthful spirit that made hits of X-Men and Teen Titans.

We threw ideas back and forth, but the most important one that stuck out for me was Gerry really wanted to tap into breakdancing, BIG TIME, lol. And all joking aside, he wasn’t wrong, the time was right, break dancing was all over the media, from music to movies and television. I wanted whomever we came up with to have a strong, urban ethnic, "Down to Earth" feel that would reflect my own background.

However, Gerry’s inspiration was definitely more 'West Coast' oriented, so he, tapped into the spirit of the movie Electric Boogaloo and our first hero came from out of the gang element of 80’s LA.

Just two of the MANY breakdancing theatrical films released in 1984. Images courtesy of IMDB.

Chuck: I went along to get along, because I really disliked that movie and was unsure about the West Side Story gang influence, lol. But I did like the potential, so I suggested that his powers would be from what all Angelenos feared most out here—earthquakes. We later changed them into super-vibrational waves he would project thru his dance moves, hence the name 'Vibe'.

Vibe in action.
Panels from Justice League of America Annual #2 (1984).
Pencilled by Chuck Patton, inked by Dave Hunt.

Chuck: Gypsy came about in the same way except we wanted a ninja-like character but more exotic, and some how the subject of gypsies came up. Being from Detroit, I’ve seen encounters with a few Romany people (aka gypsies), who came into our neighborhood up from the South, and they always carried a certain cultural mystique I thought would be interesting to portray other then the usual cliché. So I suggested her powers were camouflage stealth abilities and Gerry liked that and dubbed her Gypsy.

Panels from Justice League of America Annual #2 (1984).
Pencilled by Chuck Patton, inked by Dave Hunt.

Chuck: We decided to make Detroit instead of LA the team’s new base because it would better fit the series’ 'Down to Earth' approach and, personally, it was my way of paying respect back to my old hometown which had a very negative image, contrary to how I felt about it growing up. As for the neighborhood’s cast and Vibe’s family, most were inspired by youthful memories of folks I knew.

Now about those joined covers, I think they were all Len Wein’s idea. They were a challenge to conceive but I was so very proud of how it came out. It’s the only art piece that my mentor Dick Giordano and I have done which I still own.


Justin: As part of the Justice League Detroit creative team, did you get any input into the stories and character development (especially since two of the characters were created by you)? For instance, Gypsy being a runaway -- was that your idea or something Conway built on? Are there any elements of the Justice League Detroit you were particularly proud of?


Chuck: I did at first, on Annual #2 and the follow up four issues introducing the team and their new adversaries, the Cadre. I provided the rough backstory for Vibe and Gypsy, while Gerry already had Vixen’s and Hank/Commander Steel’s bios done. I came up with Dale Gunn on my own, as the team’s "Tony Stark" like tech support and Hank’s father figure.

The Cadre, their powers, origins and looks all came from me too, except for the conception of the Overmaster’s origin, which was all Gerry’s.

Justice League Detroit battles The Cadre.
Double-page spread from Justice League of America #237 (1985).
Pencilled by Chuck Patton, inked by Rick Magyar.

Chuck: I think at the start, we really had a lot of fun coming up with the dynamics of how the new team would interact with the veteran Leaguers. Where we really were in sync was in reintroducing Aquaman as a major league bad ass. Gerry was always adamant about making him the leader and I was an Aquaman fan from way back so was totally down for it. We hinted at his potential during the Beasts trilogy, but when he steps up and takes over the team, that became the shining moment that made me proudest of the book.


Justin: Justice League Detroit ran for about two and half years before the series became re-tooled to become Justice League (the Keith Giffen and J.M. DeMatteis version). You left the book about two years into it. Was there any particular reason you left? What was going on in the background (editorially-speaking)?

Chuck: Justice League of America was my first regular series and, like Vibe and Gypsy, I was the incoming fresh-off-the-street newbie with Gerry’s venerable vet on a book that he had steered for a helluva long. I think he wanted to leave before I came in on the book but was going back and forth about whether to go or not.

Originally the Beasts trilogy was to be our first book together, which I had started penciling when suddenly Gerry stopped, went on hiatus, shelving that issue and I had to continue with multiple fill-in writers. It was rough going at first, as I had enjoyed the beginning of the trilogy and now I had to cruise until a direction for Justice League of America was figured out. But Len Wein kept me on course until Gerry decided to return and we restarted with Beasts again. By then I was feeling a little more confident about what I wanted to do visually and made suggestions on the Beasts script that I found rubbed Gerry wrong. But Len smoothed things over for us. He and Gerry were old friends plus he knew how to get the most out of us, so changes were made that was comfortable for both and somehow we got a much better product in the end. That opened the door to Gerry and I communicating a little better. I owe a lot of our creative synergy to Len. He really helped in encouraging my sense of storytelling, plotting and character development that went into collaborating with Gerry.

The first two issues of the Beasts trilogy. Covers by Chuck Patton and Dick Giordano.

Chuck: I believe [Len] was a huge part of the enthusiasm Gerry and I generated at the beginning of Justice League Detroit. But once he left the book, whatever cohesion Gerry and I started with came apart. Gerry went from talking over plots to just turning in full scripted stories that left me feeling disengaged from the process. I missed the Marvel-style plot outlines that allowed room for back and forth discussion and was told to stick with the art and he with the stories. So from there, I quickly grew very bored, disillusioned and dissatisfied with the series and my own work and wanted off. It was definitely a case of creative differences, and that sums it up neatly.

Without Len’s input, we lost his tremendous ability as a sounding board, arbitrator and BS detector, and the book seemed to rub everybody wrong. Nevertheless, I really missed the initial idea of what Justice League Detroit set out to do. For that time period of comics, a younger, newer Justice League of America made a lot of sense and I’m very grateful to Len and Gerry to have been a part of that.

Vibe's last stand.
Justice League of America #258 (1987). Cover by Luke Mc Donnell.

Justin: When J.M. DeMatteis took over Justice League of America, he needed to clear the roster for the newly aforementioned Justice League team. Ultimately, Vibe was killed off. Was this a unanimous decision? Or did you just find out 'after the fact'?

Chuck: I found out after the fact. I had done a few Justice League of America covers after giving up the book but when that obligation ended, I stopped looking at it and washed my hands of Vibe and Justice League Detroit. Even after I had moved on to Teen Titans then Vigilante, I’d read some vitrol over the series or Vibe in particular, from either a fan or pro who despised it for one thing or another. I did check out the last issue where everyone died. It didn’t make me feel any better, but it was not my watch anymore, so I turned away to other pursuits.

Jump to years and years later, and I’m finishing work on the Batman: Brave and the Bold animated series, when one of the directors, who was a big Vibe/JLD fan, talked me into doing a Vibe segment for WB’s DC Nation shorts. That was the first time I heard there was a "cult of popularity" around him, it truly surprised the hell out of me, lol! The short came off well and got everybody talking, suddenly Vibe becomes popular due to Geoff Jones’ support and then the CW swooped in and the rest is history.

Gave me a big big smile.

Carlos Valdes as Cisco Ramon (aka 'Vibe') in CW's The Flash. (2017)

Justin: What are your final thoughts on your Justice League Detroit run from 1984/1985? Any lessons learned? Things you would've done differently? Things you'd repeat in a heartbeat?

Chuck: Tough question! But as I stated earlier, I really believed in what we wanted to do initially, that a younger Justice League of America was a good idea so no regrets about that. However I really really wished we had avoided a lot of the gimmickry or played them a lot less clichéd from the jump.

I do share responsibility in my part of that, but I always felt uncomfortable with Vibe’s accent. It was meant to be a blind, something he hid behind to keep people from knowing he wasn’t that "streetwise", but it was handled clumsily and we took our lumps for it.

Panels from Justice League of America Annual #2 (1984).
Pencilled by Chuck Patton, inked by Dave Hunt.

Art-wise, I felt I wasn’t as polished as I wanted to be, although it was a hard book to start your career on. It still taught me so much about group dynamics, and storytelling. Plus I was going through a revolving pool of inkers as well as writers, so it was very hard to settle in and hit a stride even after Justice League Detroit started. Then again, if that [had] not happened, I wouldn’t had been motivated to find what I was looking for elsewhere. As for things I would repeat in a heartbeat? Lol, honestly, I’m a big believer in things going the way they should have despite the ups and downs, and I’d had followed this same path anyway! Considering where I ended up, I am and have been very fortunate.

Page from Teen Titans Spotlight #13 (1987).
Pencilled by Chuck Patton, inked by Romeo Tanghal.

Justin: Any new projects you are working on or would like to talk about? I'm all ears.

Chuck: As we speak an animated series I directed just premiered on Netflix, called Kulipari Dreamwalker. It’s the second season of Kulipari Army of Frogs, that I worked on before, but now I’m at the helm, and excited to see it finally out there. The other thing I just completed is still a secret, but I can say this much, it’ll be my first comic book work I’ve done in many years and I’m very thrilled about it. So it’s been a quite an interesting time for me.

...and thus concludes our interview with the talented Chuck Patton. Back in 2009, Chuck was interviewed by our friends at the Aquaman Shrine about his time at DC comics, which you can read here. If you want to read more about the exploits of Justice League Detroit (and really, who doesn't?), I strongly encourage you to peruse the Justice League Detroit blog. 

An additional reminder that almost ALL of Justice League Detroit's adventures have been collected in the Justice League: The Detroit Era omnibus that can be purchased wherever better comic books are sold.

We're going to end this interview on a high note and leave you with a terrific 2-page spread of Vibe doing what he does best: breakin'! 

-Justin

From Justice League of America #233 (1984). Pencilled by Chuck Patton, inked by Bill Anderson.

A review of the 1986/1987 LEGENDS mini-series

LEGENDS had begun as a follow up to Crisis on Infinite Earths. Seen mainly as a springboard for launching several new titles such as Giffen & DeMatties' run on Justice League and John Ostrander's Suicide Squad, it still stands on its own as an entertaining read.

The plot is relatively straightforward, but with enough happening in each issue to make it feel like a bigger story than the page count suggests. Darksied is scheming with Glorious Godfrey on Apokolips to destroy the so-called superhero 'legends' of earth. If he does so, it will make humanity stop believing in higher ideals and be much more susceptible to being brainwashed and taken over. The Phantom Stranger shows up and makes a bet with Darksied that humanity will never turn its back on its heroes and good will never truly be snuffed out. To carry out his plans, Darksied sends Godfrey to pose as a TV preacher, G. Gordon Godfrey, and use the media to spin the public into believing that the very existence of superheroes mocks the 'common man' and that the US Government should outlaw them.

Glorious Godfrey as outspoken pundit from LEGENDS #1 (1986).
Pencils by John Byrne, inks by Karl Kesel.

The public is surprisingly quick to agree with this and after a few incidents of anti-superhero mob attacks, Ronald Reagan is forced to temporarily order all heroes to cease activities for the time being.

I should point out that although it’s implied that Godfrey is somehow using New God technology to hypnotise people in to following him, it’s never outright stated as such, so what we’re left with is the fact that he was able to simply get the public to attack Batman and Robin up in a department store after they just saved them all from an armed robbery.

Fun fact: Five of the  eight characters in this panel were co-created by Gerry Conway.
Justice League Detroit (with Firestorm and Cosmic Boy) from LEGENDS #1 (1986).
Pencils by John Byrne, inks by Karl Kesel.

Darkseid also sends out his minion Brimstone, a plasma-based skyscraping entity who fights with the Detroit-era Justice League (in a bittersweet last adventure before the end of that team), and is eventually defeated by the newly-created Suicide Squad. We get to see them in action, fighting atop Mount Rushmore.

Suicide Squad vs Brimstone from LEGENDS #3 (1987).
Pencils by John Byrne, inks by Karl Kesel.

Ronald Reagan plays a background role, but it's a vital one; it’s his executive order to temporarily ban superheroes (in response to mass public unrest) that creates much of the drama of the series. Contemporary politicians in superhero comics is always a tricky issue -- since it instantly dates a comic book's longevity. It is rather interesting that he’s presented as an unknowing tool on behalf of Darkseid, the super-villain who Jack Kirby always equated with Richard Nixon.

The Then-President of the United States consults with Superman in LEGENDS #2 (1986)
Pencils by John Byrne, inks by Karl Kesel.

Many heroes are affected by the ban. Captain Marvel, having been tricked by a clone of Macro- Man planted to explode when struck by lightning, believes he murdered him and is afraid to use his magic word to change from Billy Batson again. Blue Beetle is shot by a cop after he stops a criminal, thinking maybe it’s time to give up crime-fighting.

Blue Beetle being shot at by cops. From LEGENDS #2 (1986)
Pencils by John Byrne, inks by Karl Kesel.

Guy Gardner saves an out of control plane from crashing by landing it on the freeway, and all he gets for his trouble is a bunch of angry passengers and inconvenienced motorists. Guy is atypically in control of himself in this mini, and seems like a competent, if not hot-blooded, Green Lantern. In comparison with Hal who he’s replacing, he seems like a much more exciting GL, making constructs of crazy monsters and using his power ring in clever ways like popping a small hole in an oil tank above a bad guy's head, as opposed to Hal "Giant Baseball Bat" Jordan.

Guy Gardner in all his glory! From LEGENDS #5 (1987)
Pencils by John Byrne, inks by Karl Kesel.

This characterization stands in contrast to the half-cocked hotshot that would be a main character in DeMatties and Giffens’s Justice League International.

Dr. Fate is watching all of these event unfold and decides that it’s time to act. He gathers Superman, Batman, Flash, Beast Boy, Guy, Black Canary, Blue Beetle and Captain Marvel for the upcoming battle.

Gang's all here! From LEGENDS #5 (1987)
Pencils by John Byrne, inks by Karl Kesel.

It all ends with a big showdown in Washington DC with the Dr. Fate assembled heroes versus Godfrey with his human-controlled Hunger Dogs and an army of parademons. Even Wonder Woman shows up, in her first Post-Crisis appearance in 'man's world'.

The dramatic debut of the NEW post-Crisis Wonder Woman in LEGENDS #6 (1987).
Pencils by John Byrne, inks by Karl Kesel.

After disposing of the mechanical hounds, Godfrey taunts the heroes that they won't dare hurt innocent, if deluded, bystanders. In the end though, it’s the innocent children who save the day by rushing to the unruly mob and telling them that the superheros are good guys after all. Godfrey strikes a child, releasing the people from his spell and turning the tide of the battle. It ends with the heroes standing around making a somewhat unrealistic speech about how although hero worship isn’t healthy, there will always be a need for people to believe in something greater than themselves. And if it wasn’t hammered enough in that this story is a religious allegory, the book ends with a quote from The Book of Ephesians.

The altruistic ending from LEGENDS #6 (1987)
Pencils by John Byrne, inks by Karl Kesel.

This theme -- demonstrating that the ability to influence the beliefs and values of the general public is a formidable power -- is a very common one though DC. It goes back to Jack Kirby and Darkseid’s quest for the Anti-Life Equation, all the way to the public turning on Superman in Kingdom Come (another book with heavy religious allegories), and is quite prominent in Grant Morrison's Final Crisis.

Glorious Godfrey preaching to the mob in LEGENDS #5 (1987)
Pencilled by John Byrne, inked by Karl Kesel

Iris Allen walking home is Final Crisis #4 (2008)
Art by J.G. Jones, Carlos Pacheco, and Jesus Merino.

A lot of what makes LEGENDS interesting is how, in many ways, it’s the first true BIG super team-up in the wake of the new status quo. Although Guy Gardner had been seen previously, this really feels like Guy's FIRST big public debut as the Green Lantern of Earth, and I’m sure that was the intention of the writers as they introduced Guy to a whole new crop of readership.

LEGENDS is a scientific experiment that seeks to ask the question "What would the fearful and hateful humans that populate the Marvel Universe (and X-Men comics in particular) do if they where in the much more superhero-friendly DC Universe"? The answer they seem to come up with is that they would act like jerks for a while, but in the end they would revert back to their docile selves. Somewhat unfulfilling if you ask me. It should be remembered that Watchmen was coming out at the same time as this mini-series, and didn’t shy away from asking tough questions about the morality of hero worship with schmaltzy scenes with children.

This book also fulfills the promise of showcasing a 'shared universe' by incorporating the heroes from the infinite earths that where saved during Crisis On Infinite Earths. Most notably, Earth-Two's Dr. Fate, Earth-Charlton's Blue Beetle, and Earth-Fawcett's Captain Marvel/Shazam.

Captain Marvel/Shazam from LEGENDS #5 (1987)
Pencilled by John Byrne, inked by Karl Kesel

Dr Fate! From LEGENDS #4 (1987)
Pencils by John Byrne, inks by Karl Kesel.

John Byrne's pencils are in top form. It’s his version of Superman straight out of the Man of Steel mini-series, right down to the sharp eyes and confident smile. It’s interesting to see him draw Captain Marvel, he even captures C.C. Beck's "squinty eyes" on him. Byrne's art totally fits for a series like this, given the time when it came out. It’s clean but not lifeless, gritty and detailed but not overly cluttered. It’s hard to tell how much of the art that comes out is Byrne's pencils or Karl Kesel's inks. I’ve heard that, as more and more work would be assigned to Byrne, he would forgo drawing backgrounds and would only stick to characters. The inker would sometimes fill in the backgrounds and other details when needed. This is the case in some of the later issues of Marvel's Alpha Flight (for example 1984's Alpha Flight #13 features an eleven page dream sequence with no words and minimal backgrounds -- a sequence I DO like by the way).

Billy Batson to Captain Marvel in LEGENDS #3 (1987)
Pencils by John Byrne, inks by Karl Kesel.

Ultimately, I think it’s a good mini-series that deserves reading for being a bridge from Crisis On Infinite Earths to Justice League International, but I think it’s a bit simplistic in its morality. It’s just on the edge of being a mature readers book, but then it reverts back to the world of 'Peter Pan and Tinkerbell'.

The series is written by John Ostrander and Len Wein, with pencils by John Byrne and inks by Karl Kesel.



-Anthony Kuchar

DC in the 80s interviews Diabolu Frank: the "Martian Manhunter guy"

I first discovered Diabolu Frank's The Idol-Head of Diabolu blog about five years ago. Or maybe it was seven? It's kind of hard to tell because The Idol-Head seems to have been around for as long as I can remember. It's one of those blogs you take for granted, but would miss dearly if it were to ever suddenly stop existing. If you take a look at Diabolu's blog (which I highly encourage you do), you're going to notice an interactive, visually-stimulating, informative and meticulously updated blog — quite befitting for a founding member of the Justice League of America. I didn't make the connection until about a year ago that some of my *other* favorite DC character-focused blogs (Justice League Detroit, Diana Prince as the NEW Wonder Woman, The Power of the Atom, and The Flame of Py'tar) were also being curated by Diabolu Frank. All of these sites look amazing and are kept up-to-date. That takes dedication.

Not only does DC in the 80s celebrate DC comics, but we celebrate DC fandom.  The extremely articulate and interesting Diabolu Frank was generous enough to chat with us about his earliest memories of DC comics, collecting comics in the 1980s, surviving the 90s comic book "boom and bust" and how he became the "Martian Manhunter guy".

DC in the 80s: What was your first comic book memory?

Diabolu Frank: I'm literally a lifelong fan of the medium, so I have no conscious memory of being introduced to comic books. I had coloring books starring Captain America and Superman before I could read. Certainly the '60s & '70s DC Filmation and Marvel Super Heroes cartoons were introduced to me early, and I was around for the Batman, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man and Hulk live action shows in local syndication, plus I saw the first Superman movie theatrically. My uncle, mother and father were all into comics to varying degrees, so I had youthful psyche-scarring familiarity with [Marvel comics'] Bronze Age Dr. Strange, Adam Warlock and Howard the Duck comics. Mego Pocket Heroes were my jam; I may have had every one of those at one time. With my own spare change, I favored picking up team-up books like The Brave & The Bold and DC Comics Presents with a few nickle strips of Sixlets from 7-11 to get the most bang for my fractions of a buck.

DC80s: What cemented your love of comic books?

Diabolu: I grew up in a poor neighborhood without a library outside of school, so comic books and action figures were the cheapest and most age-appropriate on-demand entertainment option available. I had friends, but I was never big on group play, so comics were great fun when I was solo and helped me connect with the most agreeable partners for one-on-one friendships. When my mother married and we got traveled around the country with my stepfather, I could maintain my relationships with comic book characters wherever there was a newsstand in a way I couldn't with the neighborhood kids that always ended up in the rear view mirror. It wasn't so much a matter of cementing interest in a hobby as a psychological dependency I've carried with me longer and more intensely than I could manage with any of my human connections. Nobody I was close to before early adolescence is still in my life today, but the comic books are.

The Brave and the Bold #172 (1981) and DC Comics Presents #45 (1982)

DC80s: I'm going to do some quick math here — if you were buying issues of The Brave & The Bold and DC Comics Presents with spare change, then you were predominantly reading comics from the late 70s/early 80s. So I'm going to guess that you were probably in your early-to-late teens during the 80s, so the 80s would've been your 'formative years' of comic book collecting/reading. Actually, as I look over your list of blogs, Justice League Detroit is one that I immediately recognize as a direct product of the 1980s. Of the comics published in the 80s, what were you mainly reading?

Diabolu: I actually just restarted a bit of personal archaeology in the form of Comic Reader Résumé, a short-lived blog series and shorter-lived run of YouTube videos that I'm repackaging and continuing as an occasional podcast. I was able to pinpoint the precise month where I shifted from occasional to regular purchaser of comic books as January of 1982. The first two episodes of the podcast version cover books I remember picking up from before that point, and subsequent episodes will chart my monthly progress for at least the next several years of routine collecting. At many decades' remove, it looks like my initial approach was catch-as-catch-can between whatever I could find at convenience stores, three-packs at grocery, thrift, toy stores, and flea markets with an emphasis on the most commonly recognizable heroes, team-up/group books, and horror/fantasy titles. The good thing about starting with limited options is that there was no place to go but up. At the flea markets especially, I saw comics go from a pile at the back corner of random booths selling other stuff to maybe one devoted comic booth per market. By the end of the decade, I'd lived within walking distance of two devoted neighborhood comic book shops in strip malls, and that was before the real explosion during the speculation bubble of the early '90s when everybody and their mother was selling them.

DC80s: As a comic book fan who was 'right there' and could see the difference between the 1970s and 1980s books being published, what were the big differences you noticed?

Diabolu: I definitely remember starting out with Superman and Batman, but abandoning them early on. DC was in a really bad place in the early '80s, having been unsuccessfully chasing Marvel's market since the start of the Bronze Age with way over the hill veterans and guys who couldn't make things work elsewhere. Superman especially was a perfect gateway character, with the Christopher Reeve movies in theaters and all the TV shows still in syndication. So I'd pick up a Superman comic, and it would be drawn by a dull hack featuring the Man of Steel against some under-powered cornball wearing a tacky half-century old costume or saving his umpteenth alien race of dried asparagus people, and I'd put it right back on the shelf. I wasn't alone in that, from what I've gathered anecdotally and from the published circulation statements. At their best, probably due to the influence of Dick Giordano, they read like Charlton with a bigger budget, but at worse they still read like DC Comics from the Eisenhower Administration. Everybody's one big exception was The New Teen Titans, DC's most Marvel book by hot creators who left Marvel over their dislike of its Editor-In-Chief, but most of the rest of the line were your grandfather's comics. DC also had poor distribution throughout Houston, TX, probably because their sell-through was lousy, so even if you liked a certain book there was no guarantee you could consistently get your hands on it. In my neighborhood, it was all about X-Men, Secret Wars, Spider-Man, and the toy tie-ins like G.I. Joe and Transformers. It was a huge deal to see a cartoon advertising G.I. Joe comics on Saturday morning network television, and I've never understood why there wasn't more outreach like that.

Blue Devil #3 (1984) and Ambush Bug #3 (1985)

The main DC books I remember picking up before their big evolution was Blue Devil and Ambush Bug. I think DC had an easier time just letting creators have fun with a book that didn't have to involve all that self serious, continuity heavy modern mythology muck. There was one booth at one flea market that had lots of Blue Devil, probably through a subscription, so between its being a good time and having a reliable source I ended up collecting that until the well ran dry. Hardly anybody wanted anything to do with humorous comics, probably because they were almost never actually funny, and those with a talent for comedy in the industry were already at Mad Magazine or one of its many knock-offs. Keith Giffen was always an exception in that respect, and Ambush Bug was the perfect book to send up all the convolutions and pretensions of the comics at that time.

In 1986, I was still into X-Men and G.I. Joe, but I figure that was the year DC finally figured out their post-Silver Age identity. They started actively courting Marvel's top talent instead of handing out blank checks to whichever disgruntled expats walked through their door. They skimmed the cream off the top of the independent press, which included a lot of creators they themselves had displaced in the '70s, and offered new visions of their properties. The 'British Invasion' was truly beginning with Watchmen and proto-Vertigo. It didn't happen overnight, and Marvel was still selling truckloads of kiddie fare to the fanboys, but by the end of the decade DC was making surgical strikes into both the connoisseur and casual reader markets. The 1989 Batman film and Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns opened the doors wide for a surge in readership, and I bought my own copy of the movie adaptation out of a counter dump next to the popcorn machine at the theater. I got back into the DC Universe late in '87 with John Byrne's Superman and Justice League International, but my interest ebbed and flowed until the early '90s. I felt like Marvel was being strip-mined for easy profit and Image Comics were just telling the same sort of nonsense violent juvenile power fantasies as Marvel with flashier art and paper stock. I shopped around quite a bit, but DC was where I felt most at home, where I stayed the longest as a fan, and it's the universe I have the greatest emotional and intellectual investment in. It was a time when you could see Vertigo and Ultraverse ads on Sunday afternoon UHF channels, and every suburb had a half dozen shops conveniently located. I'd say 1986-1993 was the last shining moment where actual physical comic books mattered in the greater conversation of popular culture.

DC80s: Did the 'Direct Market' distribution system affect your buying habits?

Diabolu: Having access to comic shops definitely expanded my horizons, giving me the opportunity to raid back issues and try more independent titles. There was also greater representation in book stores, with growing shelves of trade paperbacks, and as a reader I often favored the latter since the shops were so preoccupied with stocking the latest hot single issues. Unfortunately, all the money from the speculator boom turned everybody into little Napoleons trying to sell entire universes with all the cheap gimmick bells and whistles (like embossing and foil stamping now reserved for boxes of cereal and toothpaste). Solid publishers like First and Eclipse went under quick while carpetbaggers like the collection of houses best known as Malibu cashed in for millions. DC had created a sustainable market for upscale books that should have broadened the audience, but they got swallowed up in the deluge of overprinted unreadable garbage that shifted the industry out of entertainment into junk bonds. It was a pyramid scheme that benefited the corporate raiders but destroyed us utterly.

DC80s: Maybe I misread something in one your bios, but at any point did you sell or become a comic book retailer? Or own your own comic book shop? Or maybe work at one? I may be wrong here... please correct.

Diabolu: And that was the point where I came into comic book retail, under tragic circumstances, just as all hell was breaking loose. As "mayfly" under-capitalized shops run by neophyte business managers were already prone to close without warning, I had subscription boxes at multiple stores to keep my options open, and I was typically spending enough at each to float a decent discount. Following a death at one of my favorites, I was asked to help out on Wednesdays to make sure the subscriptions were pulled in a timely fashion. Once it became obvious that I was the only one actually working and was knowledgeable and professional enough to interact with the public, I was asked to take over full time. Then about a year later, I was sold as chattel with the shop under the specific condition that I had to stay with the new owners — who turned out to be argumentative and unrealistic. After a cycle of quittings and firings I was finally brought over to a better shop (also following a death, but not a suspicious one, I swear.) That arrangement worked out much better, lasting six years before my partner and I were both sick of the monotonous hand-to-mouth existence of sustaining a small neighborhood shop carrying twelve years of debt load from three previous owners. We looked into finding a buyer, but everyone we talked to wanted at least one of us to stay on after the sale, so we just helped relocate our pull box customers to other shops and liquidated. It's a point of pride that I ran the only comic shop I ever knew to close correctly with plenty of notice and money still in the bank to keep running if we'd chosen to.

The Idol-Head of Diabolu's blog header was illustrated by Michael Netzer! How cool is that?

DC80s: Going to delve into your blogging. Your 'Diabolu Frank' persona entered my radar several years ago while I was googling something about the Martian Manhunter. Lo and behold, I stumbled onto your Idol-Head of Diabolu site. Now, 'The Idol-Head of Diabolu' is a reference to a story device used in DC's House of Mystery series (1965) in which J'Onn J'Onnz had to battle a new monster every month. What is your affinity to J'Onn J'Onnz? What made you decide "this is the character for me — the character I want to dedicate a site to"?

Diabolu: I've had a passing familiarity with J'Onn J'Onzz since the mid-80s through house ads and his having arguably the best Super Power Collection action figure sculpt, soon followed by guest appearances and reading his time on various Justice Leagues. I liked the character, but I was very put off by the first issue of his eponymous, experimental 1988 mini-series. Part of it was being priced out, since I was poor and they kept releasing hardly read Martian Manhunter books that elicited sticker shock, plus it was the '90s and he didn't have long hair or excessively stylized weapons or a cybernetic eye. Then in 1996 I read Justice League: A Midsummer's Nightmare #2, where his b-plot came to a head, and I cheered in my room when I hit the Jeff Johnson splash page where a soul-deep wounded Manhunter from Mars was about to show some murderous buffoons just how not okay he was with them.

JLA: Midsummer's Nightmare #2 (1996). One PO'd martian.  

It hit me all at once how often I'd enjoyed J'Onn J'Onzz in my comics reading without acknowledging what a deep and diverse character he was. The concluding issue of the mini-series kept up my newly heated interest in the character, and I started investigating him from there. Usually, if you wanted to find out more about a comic book character, you could pick up a Who's Who or a Handbook and get the gist, but Martian Manhunter's entry was full of references to stories and characters that were not readily available or followed up on anywhere else. As it happened, one of my customers had started donating large quantities of Bronze Age DC comics and '70s Playboys to my comic shop to clear out space at his house, so I gave him store credit and cherry-picked all the Martian Manhunter stuff I could find. I was able to get most of his 1970s and early '80s appearances from that one source, including Silver Age reprints in various 80-Page Giants, his World's Finest Comics one-offs, and a run of what we now call "Justice League Detroit". I was also starting to have internet access through WebTV, and noted an initial total absence of Martian Manhunter fan sites or resources. I began talking to retired Navy Commander Adam Benson on the DC Comics Message Boards because he was the only person I could find with a firm knowledge of Martian Manhunter's solo stories in Detective Comics, and that led me to pick up low-grade reader copies of the House of Mystery strip on eBay. By that point, there were a few fan sites, but nothing remotely comprehensive with regard to the Alien Atlas' overall career. I built my own shoddy one through WebTV, and about five years after I abandoned that, fan blogs like The Aquaman Shrine inspired me to reconstitute the project in that vein, where it still exists with occasional updates and new podcasts. Basically, by taking up following the Sleuth from Outer Space, I became embroiled in the mystery of his existence as a character outside of the oft-recited "Heart and Soul of the JLA." Now I'm looking at twenty years of being able to call myself a fan of the character, with nearly as long as a vocal online advocate, and nearly nine years with the Idol-Head blog.

Now as far as why? It kinda fell into my lap. I realized that I dug the character, wanted to know more, and reported my findings. I was the only guy doing it for a long time, it was an involved process, and as my work seemingly became a key point of reference on the wiki sites that were springing up, I found myself in an echo chamber where my own stuff kept coming back to me. I see my gaps and lapses and interests (or lack thereof) reflected throughout the web of resources related to the character. Scans I captured and commissions I paid for are all over the place. There are probably fans out there with a purer love of the character than I have, which is why I named the blog after a long forgotten adversarial artifact from deep in the character's history instead of something like "The Martian Manhunter Monument," but as the loudest and longest lived voice advocating for the character, I'm "the guy" by default. Which isn't to say I don't love J'Onn J'Onzz, but I also see the faults and failings. Very few of his stories are truly exceptional, most writers can't seem to get past his being a mash-up of Superman, Mr. Spock and the Cookie Monster, and I think most of his fans are so casual that's all they expect from him.

DC80s: How have you reacted to the evolution of the character of J'Onn J'Onnz over the years?

Diabolu: I for one am actually very happy with the New 52 redesign bringing him into the 21st century after he spent the second half of the 20th looking like a refugee from the first half. But J'Onn J'Onzz has so much potential — such a rich and byzantine history, such a menagerie of friends and foes waiting to be revisited. In the Silver Age he was this young dilettante adventurer fighting crime as a pastime while stranded on a world he was taken to against his will. Then his human form perished and he was off chasing a surprisingly well traveled Pandora's Box with an other-dimensional cartoon character who spoke in Pidgin English and controlled temperature. Next he predicted the coming of "grim n' gritty" by becoming a coldblooded spy battling a super-mafia in Europe. Next he was retconned into a global civil war where he was forced to address genocide and became a metaphor for Holocaust survivors in the diaspora. There is such an enormous sense of tragedy that surrounds the character, but also whimsy and fantasy and horror. J'Onn J'Onzz is extremely powerful and potentially dangerous on a cosmic scale, but he can be felled by a match and he's guided by a more resolute humanism than most super-heroes. As long as you maintain his core character as a true hero who understands the human race but doesn't always approve of its proclivities, you can tell virtually any story with this him. Martian Manhunter is the perfect utility super-hero within a shared universe encompassing any genre, but he's also great on his own as the mysterious extraterrestrial detective who can go where no human can to solve mysteries beyond the scope of the rational world. Plus, he's an effective metaphor of any unappreciated "other" in society that despite the best intentions is forced to work clandestinely within a hostile, oppressive society. He is both nakedly derivative and absolutely unique, which could describe both the Manhunter and the medium that birthed him.

DC80s: I also couldn't help but notice your blog dedicated to Despero — who is a somewhat obscure DC villain to begin with. How did that happen?

Diabolu: Despero happened to be in the only issue of Who's Who: The Definite Directory of the DC Universe I ever bought new, and I thought he was ridiculous. His head looked like a fuchsia Gila monster, and he dressed like a priest in a suburban cult that sacrificed pet rocks to a boiling vat of fondue.

Despero's 1985 Who's Who entry

I don't think I saw him again until the last limp mega-arc of the Justice League International era, "Breakdowns," and then again as a heavily armed anti-hero in "Judgment Day." It wasn't until I started collecting Martian Manhunter stories from the late '90s backward that I discovered Despero was worthy of appreciation. His story arc during Adam Hughes' run on Justice League America is justifiably seen as a high water mark, and for my money his first arc with the fin mohawk against the "Detroit" League deserves a similar evaluation.

Despero battles Justice League Detroit (1986)

Like the Avengers, the JLA doesn't have a great track record of generating villains, but Despero is equivalent to Marvel's Kang or Ultron. Despero was in their first issue, he turned up comparatively often, no one hates the team as much as he does, and he's very scary when you set him loose on lower powered incarnations of the team. Martian Manhunter and Despero are both garishly colored aliens from polar opposites of the emotional spectrum with deep ties to the League, so it's natural that they should have been pitted against one another so often. Personally, I'd have a lot more confidence in the Justice League film if they were both in it, instead of wasting the Fourth World the first time out, and by extension veer far outside the historical early days of the League. Ironically, Despero as revised by Gerry Conway and Giffen & [J.M.] DeMatteis would fit the [Zack] Snyder Murderverse fairly well, but I'd just assume not have to go there.

DC80s: What have been the most rewarding results of this? Your most cherished memories and achievements?

Diabolu: Mark Waid once tweeted out that my Martian Manhunter Encyclopedia was the favorite thing he found on the internet that one day, and when I interviewed J.M. DeMatteis he noted that he already knew about and had visited the site. I've had good experiences, meeting people through blogging and pod-casting that I like and am happy to know. Ultimately, I've enjoyed pod-casting more because it creates capsules of good times with people I love, plus there's still a vocal audience for tawky shows, where blogging is now just a depressing slog bereft of any positive reinforcement. I don't think either endeavor has had much impact though, and I'm still waiting to "level up" to doing something with legitimate meaning.

---end of interview---

I'm going to respectively disagree with the interviewee's last few sentences here, and state that Diabolu Frank's blog posts are some of the most entertaining and informative I've read on the internet. Frank is a natural-born writer; his work is filled with humorous observations and intelligent insights (and his grammar and spelling are fantastic). Among the other blogs listed in the opening paragraph of this interview, Diabolu Frank also writes for Crisis Building, The Justice League Blogosphere, the DC Bloodlines blog, and his own whatever-he-feels-like blog, ...nurgh.

You can catch The Idol-Head of Diabolu's podasts on the Rolled Spine network. And, if you are so inclined, you can also follow Diabolu Frank on twitter.

As you can imagine, a site as J'Onn J'Onnz intensive as The Idol-Head must provide a list of the definitive Martian Manhunter stories of each era - and they do. (Which I'm going to share with you, because the lists are THAT good):

• Martian Manhunter in the 50s
• Martian Manhunter in the 60s
• Martian Manhunter in the 70s
• Martian Manhunter in the 80s
• Martian Manhunter in the 90s
• Martian Manhunter in the 00s

I'm also going to recommend listening to Diabolu Frank's interview with John Ostrander & Mark Verheiden, which was recorded at Comicpalooza 2016.


-Justin

DC in the 80s interviews Michel Fiffe. Round 1

For those of you who don't know, Michel Fiffe is the creator, writer & illustrator of the smash indie comic book series COPRA. Not only is Michel Fiffe the one-man creative force behind COPRA, but he's also an avid and well-read fan of 80s comics (the concept behind COPRA was heavily inspired by John Ostrander's Suicide Squad [1987 - 1992]). Fiffe was one of the first followers of the DCinthe80s tumblr blog back in 2013, before we realized who he was we simply knew him as a connoisseur of 80s and 90s comics. Despite his frantic schedule of writing and drawing EVERY issue of COPRA on a monthly basis, Fiffe was generous enough to sit down with us and chat about DC comics from the 1980s.

self-portrait of Michel Fiffe

DCinthe80s: So, 2015 has been a very good year for you. COPRA is receiving tons of (well-merited) accolades, you had a gig as a writer for a Marvel Comics title (All-New Ultimates), you've breached issue #25 of your self-published COPRA series (which is now available on comixology) - but we're going to talk about none of that today...

You're about 2 years older than me (I was born in 1981), and after reading your blog and your interviews, I'm realizing that you more or less had the same experiences growing up as I did: first exposure to a comic book was older reprint material? check. no easy accessibility to a comic book shop? check. first exposure to the collectible market were Garbage Pail Kids trading cards? check. collected Marvel Impel trading cards? check. wasted your money on Image comics? check. took a hiatus to 'discover' music and girls? check. discovered (and consumed) the 'indie press' a bit later? check.

You mentioned that one of your first comics was a Dave Gibbons Green Lantern reprint story and you credit it as being one of the comics that helped you learn how to read. While that may be one of your earliest comic books, I didn't read much about you being a Green Lantern fan. Are you a Green Lantern fan? On that note, who would be your favorite DC character? What else did you 'cut your teeth on' as you were reading comics in the 1980s?

Michel Fiffe: I liked Green Lantern more when I was a kid, even before I started reading comics. I loved the Super Powers toy and the enclosed mini comic. But yeah, I find that the Green Lantern issues drawn by Dave Gibbons are near-definitive, and I'm not the world's biggest Len Wein fan, either, but those comics look so damn good. I actually did have one Super Powers proper comic, which was my introduction to Jack Kirby. But anyway, when I started getting really into comics I was on a steady diet of John Byrne's Superman titles and both Norm Breyfogle and Jim Aparo's respective Batman work. I would come across things like Blue Beetle and Booster Gold. The former I didn't get far into (again: Wein), but I was really into Booster Gold. It was a fun, little side book that didn't seem to have much consequence, and that really appealed to me. I liked that the entire run was mostly self-contained and that its creator, Dan Jurgens, was pretty much left alone the entire time.



DCinthe80s: I also read from that same The Comics Journal interview that your 'trifecta' growing up was Justice League, Suicide Squad and Marvel's Daredevil. What was your favorite version of the Justice League?
 
Fiffe: Oh, the Kevin Maguire stuff, without a doubt. There's no comparison. Justice League International is just the best. I sort of hate that history has relegated it to the "bwahaha" era, which the series creators have no problem perpetuating themselves. It's so much more than a cutesy, shit grinning humor book. It had great action and drama, it had a wide variety of personality types and conflicts, and sometimes it got really, really dark. It's such a well rounded and gorgeous book -- it's a genuine joy to re-read. I got a thrill back in the day just by looking at the covers, and I still get that thrill. I should mention that the Luke McDonnell-drawn Despero story arc during the Detroit era is a top contender, just for its sheer insanity.

DCinthe80s: Were there any story lines/cross-over events that really stood out for you? I have you laughingly referring to DC's Millennium as "a big old mess", but you loved it nonetheless.

Fiffe: I was on board all the crossovers from Legends up to Eclipso, but yeah, I like Millennium a lot. That's been a punching bag since day one. It seemed like an editorial nightmare but on a rudimentary level, as an 8 year old? C'mon, it was aesthetically pleasing to see all those superheroes in one comic. Plus it's kind of cool to have a totally egocentric Steve Engelhart tie a huge company crossover into a couple of Justice League stories he wrote a decade prior. I'd say Invasion! and Armageddon 2001 are the two that always battle it out for Best Event Ever. By sheer scope and editorial focus, though, Invasion! usually wins.



DCinthe80s: Having access to Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns at the age of 9 was a huge leg up on me. What else were you able to get your hands on?
 
Fiffe: My early collection was so spotty because, again, I rarely made it out to the comic shop. When I did, that's when I would get the pricier, slicker stuff, all the prestige format material. Not many of them, mind you. I only had the third issue of Dark Knight Returns for years, and honestly that one issue was enough to be pivotal in the way I looked at comics. I also only had the second issue of Batman: The Cult, which is basically Jim Starlin being weird. I personally like the Cult a whole lot, it's sort of a mess, but it was definitely cool to have this garish, totally bloody Batman story. Bernie Wrightson and Bill Wray made a great art team. I'd be remiss not to mention the Suicide Squad, especially since that's what I mostly bought when I would hit up the comic shop. I bought back issues, little by little, and it was one of the couple of titles I had almost a complete run of. The rush of combing a bin and seeing the cover of Suicide Squad #10 (1988), "Up Against the Wall", for the first time... I mean, you cannot beat that.

Michel Fiffe with original art from Suicide Squad #10

DCinthe80s: You were an avid comic book fan throughout the beginnings of the 'comic card collecting bubble' in the early 90s - which was probably the apex of the comic collecting bubble (and the start of the gimmick era). I have a quote from you in which you are waxing nostalgic about the Marvel Universe Impel cards from the early 90s: "I think there was just this fever in the air in general, that jittery pre-Image charge that Marvel Comics had... and the second series of cards really captured that." As you read more of the article, we are reading that you are actually a HUGE fan of the art from these cards. What do you remember from this pre-Image era? Were you collecting everything and anything - or were you noticing a decline in the quality of comics? 

Fiffe: By the time that pre-Image stuff rolled in, my buying habits were a bit more solidified. I was what -- 12, 13 years old? I would still try out new books, but I definitely had favorites I was loyal to. Up to that point, I mostly bought comics for the art or the characters, therefore having a "good story" wasn't the selling point for me. Not like I wasn't sensitive to great writing; I knew that Frank Miller stories were more exciting to read than the usual stories. I recognized that John Ostrander wrote amazing Suicide Squad comics, but I wasn't crazy about his Firestorm material. But still, I bought most comics for the art, and so I was ready-made for the Image boom. In retrospect I can lazily point to the diminished quality in the writing and art as being the key factor in my comics disinterest, but really, my tastes were also changing. And by the time I discovered alternative comics, good writing mattered to me. Good everything mattered. The small press met that criteria. My tastes and my income, which is to say lack thereof, affected my comics consumption. I was pickier, brutal even, totally ignoring most of the mainstream of that era. All the while, I still cherished Cosmic Odyssey.

one of Michel Fiffe's favorite pages from DC's Cosmic Odyssey series

Michel Fiffe was extremely generous with his time and this interview is so long that it needs to run in three parts. In our next installment, Fiffe discusses: which 80s comics he 're-discovered', which 80s comic book artists influenced his style, and anecdotes about breaking into comics during the late 90s.