About a year ago, there was a semi-regular feature here at DC in the 80's called Usenet Fandom... wherein I would dredge up forum posts about comics from the prehistoric internet and, with my own superpower of "hindsight" proceed to dissect and analyze them... making us "future folks" feel quite a bit smarter than all those college students pulling up BBS's and newsgroups via primitive modems.
As I often do, I found myself getting sidetracked... and eventually lost my way with the feature.
Well... let's give it another go, shall we?
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Today we're going to discuss the blockbuster follow-up to Crisis on Infinite Earths... Crisis on Captive Earth! Wait, what?!
In a missive titled, "The 'Next' CRISIS?" on January 28 1986, Usenetter "Mr. B", says:
We'll discuss Crisis on Captive Earth in a bit more detail below, however... this is a portion of the text page from Secret Origins #2 (May, 1986) Mr. B is talking about:
I'll agree somewhat with Mr. B, the origin story was perhaps a bit hokey... but, very likely contorted to fit the existing plot. The text-piece in the back of the issue discusses the entire history of the character (and plenty of neat Charlton Comics information!). That being said, perhaps DC was trying to tie everything in as neatly as possible. This doesn't always make for the snappiest or most exciting story, but it works.
Gil Kane's artwork here, while not bad... sort of dates the book, and makes it feel much older than it is. I have similar feelings anytime I read pre-Crisis "Trial era" Flash comics with Carmine Infantino on art. Mr. B is mistaken as to the penciller on the Blue Beetle ongoing... that would be Paris Cullins (though, Chuck Pattondiddraw issue #10).
Crisis on Captive Earth, eh? Well, research indicates that you and I might know this maxi-series better as Crisis of the Soul! Hmm, still nothin' huh? Okay... Crisis on Captive Earth became... Crisis of the Soul... which then became... Legends!
Per Amazing Heroes #62 (January 1, 1985) which served as their 1985 Preview issue, this story was originally envisioned to take place in a twelve-issue maxi-series by Paul Levitz, Len Wein, and Jerry Ordway. Legends would only run six issues, and would feature Wein, as well as John Ostrander and John Byrne in the creators' chairs... and it's finished product may have only matched the scrapped maxis in when it would start hitting store shelves.
Jerry Ordway offered the following:
"The Crisis sequel was Crisis of the Soul, and featured the Corruptors from Legion continuity, I think. It was meant to be very personal to the heroes, showing them the darkness and having them deal with it and reject it or not. The Corruptors basically quarantine the Earth and that’s all I remember off the top of my head. Paul Levitz and I plotted out the main beats, and it was all set to go, until the editor ran into resistance from the other editors who didn’t want to have to cross over with it. Then when the editors changed, I bowed out. It became Legends, but it was fairly different from what we originally planned."
A piece from TwoMorrows Publishing's wonderfulBack Issue#9 sheds a bit of light on this subject. The two-pages included below come from their free-preview of the issue... they always put out great work, and are well worth your time.
From Back Issue #9 (2003)
Whoop... Legion of Super-Heroes stuff. That really puts me at a disadvantage. Let's see what we might be able to unpack here without much in the way of context. Satan Girl, from what I have deduced, was created as a dark-mirror of Supergirl (Kara Zor-El) when she had been exposed to Red Kryptonite while on an adventure in the 30th Century.
Adventure Comics #313 (October, 1963)
Since Red-K was no longer a "thing", post-Crisis, this character went away... very quickly, in fact (more on that in a bit) that is, until Zero Hourwhere she shows up to give the Legionnaires grief as a time anomaly. Not sure why Mr. B included this bit, but I'm pretty glad he did.
For completist's sake, here are a couple of replies I was able to locate... surprisingly, none of which add anything to the CRISIS talk... it's all Satan Girl here...
On February 2, 1986, "CF" answered in a post titled "Sensor Girl=Satan Girl" with:
On February 5, 1986, "TY" followed up with:
So from this, I gather that Satan Girl only lasted the one story... again... not sure why Mr. B included this... but it was a fun education regardless!
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That's all we've got for this installment. I hope folks enjoyed this... and as always, if you have any additions or corrections, please do not hesitate to write-in! Thanks for reading!
It was only a few months ago that I came to the startling realization that Michael Eury, who edited several titles for DC comics in the late 80s/early 90s, was also the same Michael Eury who is the editor-in-chief of Back Issue magazine (TwoMorrows Publishing) — one of the finest comic book journalism magazines covering the Bronze and Modern Age that you can currently purchase. I love chatting with DC comics editors; they are the unsung heroes of the comic book industry who often played a pivotal role in the overall direction of a series and were privy to business and marketing decisions that ran in the background. Mr Eury is a really cool cat, and agreed to chat with me about a few of the DC titles he oversaw.
Hawk & Dove v3 (1989 - 1991)
Justin: I just finished re-reading and reviewing the 1989 Hawk & Dove v3 ongoing series (in which you were the editor from issues #10 to issues #17). Before you became the solo editor of the series, you were assistant editor to Mike Carlin for several issues. Were you a fan of Hawk & Dove before you were assigned this book?
Eury: Absolutely! I was a child when Steve Ditko's Hawk and Dove premiered in Showcase #75 and remember reading it and a few issues of the short-lived Hawk and Dove series when they were first published. At the time I wasn't old enough to fully understand the political ramifications of the characters' names — I just "got" the concept of ideologically opposed teens arguing with each other... which was, in 1968, a pretty "Marvel"-like treatment for DC's usually harmonious, interchangeable characters.
Hawk and Dove premiered at a time when DC began experimenting with different types of characters and books, under Carmine Infantino's watch as editorial director. The Creeper, Bat Lash, Anthro, plus the one-off Dolphin story in Showcase, were books that excited me as a kid who had been lured to superhero comics because of Batmania engendered by the Adam West TV show.
Justin: How did you end up becoming editor of Hawk & Dove? (I noticed that New Gods was also being edited by Carlin before you took it over) Eury: I was hired at DC as an associate editor, having been an editor previously at Comico the Comic Company, and worked under group editors Mike Carlin, Denny O'Neil, and Andy Helfer on their books, soon taking over some of them on my own. Hawk & Dove was the first one I got to solo-edit. Not only was I excited about having my own book to oversee, but I felt connected to the characters (although by then it was a different Dove) because of my childhood passions.
Justin: If I had to summarize Hawk & Dove v3, the first half of the series was them trying to establish themselves and learn the mystical secrets of their origins, and the last half of the series (#18 and onward) was them becoming a mainstream DCU book (with lots of interaction from other DCU characters). Between yourself and the Kesels, where there any conflicts about the direction of the book? Or were you both heading in the same direction?
Eury:Karl Kesel, Barbara Kesel, and I had a wonderful working relationship. Not long ago, Karl told me that I made him feel like Hawk & Dove was DC's most important book.
The guest stars were a way to anchor Hawk & Dove within the mainstream DC Universe — another example is a minor, blink-and-you'll-miss-it one, where Hawk & Dove #9 featured a bit tying in to that month's Superman vs. the Flash race occurring in another book.
Justin: Around issue #15, the book turns to a Sword & Sorcery genre for several issues. Were there ever discussions of changing the genre of the series (i.e. Sword of the Atom)? Or was this just a fun thing to deviate and keep the title interesting?
Eury: Hawk & Dove never stopped being a superhero book — it just evolved into a multi-layered one. From the get-go, the Kesels had intended for Hawk's and Dove's connections to the Lords of Chaos and Order to be part of their background... a connection that Don Hall and Dawn Granger were originally unaware of.
Eury: Incidentally, I've written a Hawk and Dove history — covering from the Ditko original and ending with the New 52 version, but focusing mainly on the '80s-'90s version — for my magazine, Back Issue #97, which ships June 14th, 2017:
Behind the Scenes at DC comics
Justin: You left Hawk & Dove after issue #17 and began working on other projects [ex: Who's Who v2, Eclipso: Darkness Within]...?
Who's Who in the DC Universe v2 #9 (1991)
Eury: Actually, my trajectory at DC was a little more involved than that. The looseleaf Who's Who in the DC Universe, which I co-developed, started while I was still editing Hawk & Dove, New Gods, Legion of Super-Heroes, and Huntress. I was promoted to be Dick Giordano's aide in a newly created position called "assistant to the editorial director," forcing me to give up my books. After a year in that role, I wanted to be more hands-on in the editorial bullpen and returned to the editor's desk. That's when I returned to Legion of Super-Heroes, developed its spin-offs Legionnaires, Valor, and Timber Wolf, plus Eclipso. I had a goal of developing more titles set in the the 30th century — really building a bit of a future franchise — but didn't stay at DC long enough to realize them.
Justin: So...I'm placing you as Giordano's aide somewhere between late 1990 and mid 1992?
Eury: I don't recall the exact date, but it was in the early spring of 1990 that I became assistant to the editorial director, a title I held until mid-1991, at which time I went back into the editorial pool.
Justin: Those first few years of the 1990s were a particularly crazy time for comics — the peak of the nineties comic book craze was somewhere around 1993 — and DC had a glut of competition on the market. Most notably were Marvel with it's X-titles and Spider-man, but there were other up-and-coming comic companies like Valiant (who started by publishing Nintendo and WCW comics), Malibu (with it's few indie titles) and Dark Horse (who held licenses for the Star Wars, Aliens, Predator and Terminator franchises). How was head DC editorial dealing with all of this new competition?
Eury: The early '90s were indeed a crazy time, with cover gimmicks and variant covers luring readers to buy multiple copies (of course, we've seen a resurgence in that during the past few years). It was disheartening for some of the DC editors when Marvel's rebooted Spider-Man and X-Men books sold so many copies (I remember at San Diego Comic-Con '91, I presented Keith Giffen with an Inkpot Award and introduced him as someone who has "more ideas per minute than Marvel has covers of Spider-Man #1. That remark earned a "look" from Carol Kalish, who at the time was Marvel's marketing chief.) We even joked around the office that DC was "number two with a bullet," the "bullet" being a gag about DC's logo, the DC bullet.
Justin: During all this, DC remained steadfast in printing it's TSR titles (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, Spelljammer, Forgotten Realms, etc), which, I hate to say, didn't really leave a lasting impact on comicdom in general. Would you know why DC didn't discontinue the whole line? Were the sales on these books that great? Or was there a demographic DC was really trying to reach with these books?
Eury: I wasn't directly involved with any TSR books so I can't answer those questions. I do know that DC had its eye on producing comics connected to emerging popular media for some time... remember, in the early '80s DC published a number of Atari mini-comics, followed by the Atari Force ongoing series.
Justin: As an aide to Giordano, were you instrumental in working on any big DC editorial "plans" that never saw realization? Coincidentally, do you have any amusing anecdotes of working with Giordano? (I understand he got very upset when someone leaked the 'secret' ending to Armageddon 2001 and DC had to make a swap at the last minute)
Eury:Dick was a sweetheart of a guy. You might be aware that I wrote his biography, Dick Giordano: Changing Comics, One Day At a Time, published in 2003 by TwoMorrows Publishing (it's now out of print).
Thankfully, copies of Eury's book are still available in digital format.
Dick was fond of telling people during meetings that "Michael keeps me honest." He said that jokingly, and it meant that I was there to help him keep track of discussions (and, I suspect, be his backup "ears," since Dick had a severe hearing loss).
Speaking of Dick's hearing loss, one had to speak loudly and clearly when communicating with him. I began to realize that at time our "private" conversations in his office sometimes attracted eavesdroppers outside of his office door. So when we needed to discuss something confidential, we'd often take an elevator ride!
I don't recall Dick's specific reaction to the Armageddon 2001 leak, but a lot of people were ticked off by that. Unfortunately, the fix (substituting Hawk for Captain Atom as the good guy-turned-bad) wounded the story... but sometimes, you've gotta do what you've gotta do!
New Gods v3 (1989 - 1991)
Justin: As I read over New Gods, I'm realizing that it was very self-contained and more or less focused on Orion and New Genesis/Apocalypse. Let's face it, the series could've been called 'Orion' and nobody would've realized the difference. After the Bloodline Saga concluded (New Gods v3 #13), you became the primary editor. The book had Orion and Lightray in the city, interacting with common day people, and we started to see more interaction with other DC characters (Mr Miracle, Superman, Thanagarians, Mon-El), as well as more attention to Lightray and other tertiary New Gods (Fastbak, Metron), and the introduction of Yuga Khan. What caused that direction change? Was it because the title's sales were slowing down and you decided to make it more integrated? Or was it just something you felt would benefit the series? (I believe the theme you were exploring was 'how Gods compare to humans on earth')
Eury: Those of us in group editor Mike Carlin's camp were trying to better consolidate the DC Universe through crossovers and guest-shots. The direction of the series was really at the discretion of its writer, Mark Evanier — Mark was one of Jack Kirby's assistants back in the early '70s when Kirby was originally producing his Fourth World books, and really, no one was better suited at the time to write those characters than Evanier (with the possible exception of Kirby himself).
As New Gods editor, I did briefly entertain offering the book to Neil Gaiman as writer. This grew out of a pitch Neil made to me, when I was editor of Secret Origins during the end of its run, for a Darkseid origin. I had to tell Neil that Secret Origins was being canceled, but later realized how perfect Neil would be for the Fourth World mythology. Then I got promoted to being Dick's assistant and I regrettably never pursued that.
I must mention that in May 2018, Back Issue #104 will feature a "Fourth World After Kirby" theme, exploring all of the post-Kirby incarnations of the New Gods characters.
Justin: What were DC's plans with the Fourth World characters going into the 90s? There was Cosmic Odyssey, and both Mister Miracle and the New Gods had an ongoing series, the Forever People had a mini-series, the Guardian and the Newsboy Legion had been appearing in Superman titles, and the Female Furies had been appearing in Suicide Squad. Was there any resistance from the Jack Kirby estate on the use of the characters?
Eury:Kirby was still alive during most of what you mentioned, and the characters were DC's property. You could argue that the New Gods, et al., make better supporting characters than headliners. That still holds true today. And Darkseid, in particular, has been elevated to — arguably — DC's number one super villain.
Darkseid pin-up from Who's Who in the DC Universe v2 #1 (1990). Illustrated by Mark Badger.
Justin: The New Gods (as a comic book series) have never experienced that much longevity, I think the New Gods series you edited (which concluded at issue #28) had the longest run. Would you have any hypothesis as to why that would be?
Eury: I never considered its longevity until you mentioned it. Perhaps it was because the characters better interfaced with the rest of the DCU. Other than Superman and Jimmy Olsen, Kirby kept his Fourth World at arm's length from DC's other characters (although before long, other creators started using Kirby's characters, such as the Batman/Mr. Miracle team-up in Brave and the Bold #112 (1974)).
Legion of Super-Heroes
Justin: I'm also going to to point out that Mon-El appeared in a lot of Legion of Super-Heroes titles you edited, was one of Eclipso's main henchman in Eclipso: The Darkness Within, appeared in New Gods during your editorial run, and you were instrumental in launching his first ongoing series in 1992. Is Mon-El (aka Valor) a character you were fond of reading about while growing up?
Eury: When I was a kid reading the Legion in Adventure Comics and then the Cockrum/Grell era in Superboy starring the Legion of Super-Heroes, Mon-El was one of my two favorite Legionnaires (the other being Ultra Boy). Funny how I zeroed in on the two Superboy knock-offs... Mon-El fascinated me, from his original status as Superboy's "brother" to his cool costume to his tragic banishment to the Phantom Zone (I wrote The Brave & The Bold editor Murray Boltinoff back in the '70s asking for a Batman/Mon-El team-up, temporarily liberating Mon from the Zone for a Bat-adventure; sorry that never happened... would've love to have seen Mon-El drawn by Jim Aparo).
Justin: You were the editor for Legion of Super-Heroes v4 #31 (1992) — in which it is revealed that Shvaughn Erin was actually a man the whole time. Was there any complications in running that story? Did Legion fans react poorly or amicably to that 'twist in the plot'?
Eury: Well, it was shocking, especially for the time! Reaction was mixed, as I recall, but today it turns out that the story was revolutionary for its time.
...and that wraps up our interview with Michael Eury. We wanted to thank Mr Eury for being particularly generous with his time. We also wanted to spotlight that not only is Mr Eury the editor-in-chief of Back Issue magazine, but he's also authored a few DC comics companion books. A few that you may recognize:
-Justin
Special thanks to contributing editor, Rob Perry, for help compiling the questions.
Just in case you missed part 1 of this article: Travis Ellisor, curator of the Mostly Comic Art tumblr blog, told us his history of collecting original comic book art and artist commissions, the DOs and DON'Ts of shopping for original comic book art/commissions and the importance of crediting artists when posting comic book art on online. This was the second part of our conversation...
DC in the 80s: Can you pick a few of your personal favorite commissions you own and tell us the significance?
Travis Ellisor: Picking my favorites is really difficult to do, because I love them all for different reasons. But some that I’m really loving today:
Karate Kid vs Batman - illustrated by Norm Breyfogle and colored by Simon Gough
Norm is my all-time favorite Batman artist and I was lucky enough to get this from him at a show a few years ago. Norm was super-nice and a pleasure to talk to. When I first made my wish list of artists and characters I wanted for my “Karate Kid vs.” collection, this was at the top of my list and I couldn’t have been happier when I received it.
The Legion of Substitute Heroes by Tom Fowler
Tom is one of the best artists in the world, and he honestly gets the appeal of the Subs. This one started out as a piece for a Heroes Con auction, but Tom didn’t finish it in time and so I paid him to finish it for me.
This one started as a commission of all of the Robins, but kept expanding until it included all of the Batgirls, Batwomen and Batmen. It is the largest commission I own and it measures almost seven feet long! Nate and Simon went above and beyond on this piece.
'Batsman' by Daniel Govar
'Batsman' is an obscure future version of Batman who has a unique design that I love. Daniel is an incredibly talented artist. Put them together and you get this beauty!
Thor vs Kalibak - illustrated by Ron Salas
This is part of my "Asgard Meets the Fourth World" theme and showcases the incredible talents of Ron Salas. With this commission I went from being a fan of Ron’s work to being a mega-super-fan of his work!
Superwoman (Laurel Kent) illustrated by Gene Gonzales and colored by Simon Gough
I have many commissions from Gene, but this is probably my favorite, with him drawing Laurel Kent in her rarely-seen Superwoman costume.
Legion of Super-Pets by Joel Carroll
Joel has been drawing the entire universe of Legion characters for me, and this may be my favorite from him. The Super-Pets team is a silly idea but I think that comics needs silly ideas!
Karate Kid vs Karate Kid vs Karate Kid - illustrated by Derec Donovan
Since there have been three main versions of Val Armorr, I wanted to see them all having the best martial arts match of all time, and Derec delivered!
Karate Kid vs Captain Marvel - illustrated by Evan Shaner and colored by Ryan Cody
Years before DC would hire Evan to draw Billy Batson, I paid him to draw the good Captain going at it with the Kid. Ryan Cody colored this one, and he is one heck of an artist himself.
Asgardian & Fourth World villains pencilled by Brendon Fraim, inked by Brian Friam and colored by Simon Gough
Brendon and Brian are two of the most professional artists you could ever commission. They are great at communicating, offer excellent rates, and always deliver high quality commissions. I mean, look that this piece! It’s amazing! And Simon did a perfect job with the colors, adding just the right feel to it.
I could go on and on, and eventually might list everything in my collection, so just go browse it for yourself at Comic Art Fans. [and yes, Travis owns all of these pieces. Truly a lucky lucky guy. -J]
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DC80s: Can you tell us about your favorite DC books and your history with DC comics in general?
Ellisor: My comics reading was very sporadic when I was a kid, mostly reading other people’s comics.
I’m not 100% sure what my first DC comic was, but the first one I distinctly remember reading is Adventure Comics #501 (1983). This comic introduced me to many DC characters that I would come to love, especially the Legion of Super-Heroes!
There were two Legion stories in that comic. One had Superboy, Mon-El and Ultra Boy having their minds taken over by Adolph Hitler, Nero and John Dillinger. That was interesting, for sure, but I think that I was most intrigued by Ultra Boy, who basically had all of Superman’s powers, though he could only use one of them at a time. I spent some time thinking what I’d do with those kinds of powers.
The second Legion story in that comic is still one of my favorites: “The Legionnaires’ Super-Contest!” It introduced me to one of my favorite concepts in comics – The Legion of Substitute Heroes! In that story, all of the Subs got to try out for Legion membership by being tested in various challenges. Stone Boy won the offer of membership, but ultimately decided to stay with the Subs. I love this team of misfits, and to his day I get a thrill whenever they appear.
Years later when I started to actually have a little money of my own; I started buying lots of comics, beginning with Marvel's Transformers, because I loved the toys. Then I expanded into other Marvel books, mostly X-books, then on to DC stuff such as the Bat-books and the Legion.
The Legion at that time was in the middle of the “Five Years Later” period, so it was very odd to me. The first issue I remember picking up was Legion of Superheroes v4 #23 (1991), which had a Lobo appearance and was part 3 of “The Quiet Darkness”. Not a great starting point! Nevertheless, I kept checking it out and then Zero Hour happened and the Legion books had a crossover called “End of an Era” which featured characters and plot points from their entire history and though I was unfamiliar with most of it, I was intrigued and wanted to know more!
Also around this time I got into Starman, The Spectre and The Sandman. These three comics were some of the best written stories I had ever read, and made me big fans of the creators. So I started looking for more books by them.
Looking for more books by John Ostrander lead me to Suicide Squad. Now I had decided to begin looking for back issues of the Squad at some point, and right around then I went on a family vacation. While on vacation, we stopped in some little town for my mom to check out an arts and crafts fair. I noticed a used book store near there and when I went in, I found an almost complete collection of Ostrander’s run on Suicide Squad! The owner sold me the whole set for $10. That, my friends, is getting lucky.
Suicide Squad v1 #2 (1987)
I devoured those Suicide Squad comics and fell in love with the characters. Deadshot, Bronze Tiger, Boomerbutt and the Wall are still some of my all-time favorite comics characters.
Since then I have read so many amazing DC comics. One time I read Alan Moore/Dave Gibbon's Watchmen, Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns and Crisis on Infinite Earths all in one week. That blew my mind. I eventually read Jack Kirby’s Fourth World saga, Grant Morrison’s everything, Wolfman/Perez’s Teen Titans, and so many other great runs.
I also went back and tracked down every single Legion of Super-Heroes story. Now, I don’t own every individual Silver Age issue, but I at least own the reprints in the Legion Archives volumes.
DC80s: Thank you for chatting with us today, Travis. We're looking forward to any other DC-centric commissions you pick in the future and we plan on keeping an eye on your Comic Art Gallery.
DC in the 80s is extremely lucky to have the privilege of chatting with Travis Ellisor (curator of the Mostly Comic Art tumblr blog) who is not just an original comic book art enthusiast, but a collector as well. Today, Mr Ellisor shares tips for comic book fans who are either thinking about purchasing original comic book art or are simply are curious about the whole process. There's really no point in us yakking any more about this, so let's just jump right into it...
DC in the 80s: How long have you been collecting original art/commissions?
Travis Ellisor: Well, I‘ve been a big fan of comics and comic art since I was a little kid. As more artists started putting their work on the internet, I became an even bigger fan of the art itself. I especially loved process pieces, seeing the pencils, inks and colors in stages. I began following many of my favorite artists online, and that’s when I began to learn about commissions. Many collectors seemed to have themes, and some had very interesting ideas and pairings of characters that you’ll likely never see in published comics.
My first commission was of Karate Kid fighting Green Arrow (Connor Hawke), drawn by Derec Donovanin in 2009. Derec had posted on deviantART (a website featuring many artists) that he was currently taking commissions and I figured that he would be a great artist to start with. I was a big Green Arrow fan, and Derec had drawn a fantastic-looking Connor Hawke miniseries. Also, I am a HUGE Legion of Super-Heroes fan, and Karate Kid is my favorite member. Since Connor Hawke was such a great martial artist, I thought it would be cool to put him in a match-up with Val Armorr. Derec was all for the idea and delivered a fantastic piece to me shortly afterwards. In fact, I liked the commission so much that I decided that "Karate Kid vs." would be the major theme for my collection. And now I have over a hundred Karate Kid commissions!
Karate Kid vs Green Arrow (Connor Hawke) - illustrated by Derec Donovan and colored by Simon Gough
Also, I should point out that working with Derec Donovan on that commission was such a great experience that it lead to me commissioning him many more times, and we have since become friends. It’s always cool when your favorite artists turn out to be nice people. I highly recommend Derec to anyone interested in commissions.
In fact, most of the artists I’ve commissioned are just incredibly nice, cool people. Mike McKone, Chris Batista, Evan Shaner, Norm Breyfogle, Phil Hester, Steven Butler, Tim Lattie, Tom Fowler, Gene Gonzales, Mike Rooth, Dave Stokes, Andrew MacLean, Mike Hawthorne, Brian Churilla, Jay Fosgitt, Andy Kuhn, Ron Salas, Nick Pitarra, Joel Carroll, Scott Wegener, Chad Thomas, Cory Smith, Kyle Starks, Nathan Stockman, well I could on for a while, but you get the idea. There are many awesome, friendly artists out there.
It’s also really cool when you discover an artist’s work before they get big. For instance, seeing James Harren become such a major talent, and knowing that I already had three commissions from him. It’s like knowing about a band before they sign a major record label deal and get mega-popular. I’ve had that happen a few times now. I would say that I have an eye for artistic talent, but that sounds like bragging.
Karate Kid vs OMAC - illustrated by James Harren
DC80s: What's the most that you've paid for a commission?
Ellisor: I *think* that my most expensive piece is my Karate Kid vs. Bengal commission that Humberto Ramos drew for me. But my memory about that stuff is horrible. I do remember that it was expensive, but oh so worth it! I set that one up with his agent Joseph Damon and picked it up at a convention in New Orleans. They were both great to work with.
Karate Kid vs Marvel's Bengal - illustrated by Humberto Ramos
My most inexpensive pieces would be the ones that I’ve gotten for free. Sometimes an artist will throw in a free sketch or page when they think that they took too long on a commission, which is cool but unnecessary. Or an artist might do a sketch for free just because I’ve been a good repeat customer to them. I also once got a sketch for paying for a guy’s dinner one night after a convention.
Digital colors are another kind of commission that I sometimes get, when I really want to see a piece colored. Simon Gough has been my main go-to guy for that, and he always does incredible work, putting a lot of thought into how he colors each piece. He is amazing. Jeremiah Skipper has colored a few commissions for me as well, and he is another great up and coming talent.
Adam Strange - illustrated by Nate Stockman and colored by Jeremiah Skipper
DC80s: How do you store your commissions/original art? Do you sell or trade them, and if so how does that work?
Ellisor: Framing is expensive and my wall space is limited, so most of my art is stored in binders. You can find them at most art supply stores, or order them online through companies like Blick Art Materials.
And I’ve never sold any of my commissions, though I have had an offer or two.
DC80s: I'm understanding that you plunged into this 'buying commissions/original comic art' thing on your own. Can you tell us about any hard lessons learned or missteps you took along the way? Any advice you can give to anyone who is thinking about taking up this hobby?
Ellisor: One of the first things I learned about setting up a commission, particularly through e-mails, is to be VERY clear about what you want. And make sure you ALWAYS provide reference. Artists usually have a good idea of what characters look like, but even they forget the details of a lot of costumes. And most characters have worn many costumes, so providing reference helps to ensure that you get what you want. Also, there are many Spider-Men, Robins, Green Lanterns, etc. nowadays so be very clear about which character in particular that you want drawn.
Be sure to give the artist some freedom to work his or her magic. For instance, I’ll ask them to draw, say, Karate Kid vs. Galactus, but that’s all the detail I’ll go into. I don’t ask for specific fight choreography or anything like that. These guys know what they’re doing and most of them have great imaginations. Give them freedom and they’ll often amaze you.
As for prices, well, that’s up to each commissioner as to how much they want to spend. If an artist is too expensive, let it go and don’t try to haggle. But if you really want a commission from them, then save up for it. Some years I get a lot of commissions, some years hardly any. Everyone has to follow their own budget. Many artists have commission prices listed on their websites and most of them who have art agents will have their rates listed on the agent’s site. Google whichever artist you’re looking for, and you’ll usually find the information you’re looking for. If not, e-mail them through their website or contact them via social media. Almost every artist in the industry is online in some form or another.
If you set up a commission online to be mailed to you, be prepared to be patient. In my experience, almost all commissions take longer than the artist estimates. This can happen because of many factors, both personal and professional. They have careers and families that come first, and you have to respect that. But I have generally found that they almost all come through in the end, and the commission ends up being worth the wait.
If you’re suspicious of an artist’s reputation with commissions, do some research or ask about them on some original comic art collecting forums. Or Google "Deadbeats In Commissions".
If you’re really concerned about the reliability of the artist but still want to give it a try, just don’t pay up-front. Tell them you won’t pay until you see a picture or low-res scan of the finished commission. Or offer to pay half up-front, and half on completion. You should be able to work something out. And if not, move on.
If you plan on commissioning an artist at a convention, make sure you find them very early in the show. This makes sure that they have time to actually draw your commission, and a lot of artists have sketch lists for their shows which fill up quickly. And bring cash. Some artists are equipped to take payments in other forms, like credit cards, but cash is always welcome.
DC80s: If you're buying a commission/original comic art from a third party dealer (ex: someone on e-bay who's NOT the artist), is there a way to verify that's it legit? That it's not a counterfeit or forgery?
Ellisor: It's difficult to be 100% sure on those things. Personally, I'd start off by closely examining the scan and comparing it to the published work. If the seller is only providing a low-res picture of the art, I wouldn't trust it. If possible, ask the artist themselves about it. Most artists can be contacted online and many don't mind verifying things like this (I see it happen on social media from time to time). If the artist can't be contacted, ask some experts, such as fellow collectors or art dealers. And of course, check the seller's feedback ratings. If anything doesn't look right, don't take a chance on it. If it looks too good to be true, like a Curt Swan Superman cover going for less than a hundred dollars, don't trust it.
DC80s: As an owner/collector of original comic book art and a curator of a fascinating blog dealing with comic art, can you tell us about the best practices of posting comic art on the internet and why it's important?
Ellisor: Well, if you want to post your personal collection, I highly recommend Comic Art Fans. That site is a fantastic resource. You can browse through other people’s collections, and make friends with other collectors there.
If you just like comic art and want to share things you’ve found online, ALWAYS credit the artist. They put in a lot of hard work into their art, and they deserve the credit.
For instance, I love looking at comic art, and one great place for seeing art is Tumblr. But after spending some time on Tumblr, I started noticing a lot of art being posted with no artist credit, or sometimes the wrong artist being credited. For instance, I once saw a cropped panel of Thanos posted on Tumblr that only said “George Perez” below it. The first thing that bothered me was that the drawing was obviously not by Perez, but by Jim Starlin and Al Milgrom. And the issue the drawing was from should have been credited. Because hey, if someone likes the art, they might want to check out the comic it’s from! Now this stuff might not bother some people, but it bothered me.
So, I started my own Tumblr at Mostly Comic Art tumblr blog where I post comic art from throughout comics history. I spend so much time browsing comic art online, I figured I could at least spread the love.
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Recommended Art Collecting Resources (provided by Travis):
This article has run a little longer than expected. In our second article, we interview Travis Ellisor about his favorite commissioned comic book original art from his personal collection and how he first got into comics. Needless to say, our next article is going to be very image-heavy with some never-before-seen original comic book art, so stayed tuned for that.
In 1986, Gerry Ross and Montreal's 1,000,000 Comix were featured on the National News thanks to a $35,000 USD sale of six Marvel comic books. Below is the original footage that someone has generously uploaded to youtube for all to enjoy. For those of you who don't have access to audio, don't worry, we'll transcribe the key parts of the interview below.
This interview was a somewhat accurate foreshadowing of the 'comic book speculator boom' that would mark the late 80s and early 90s. The most telling part is the newscaster probing Gerry Ross for which "current" comics collectors should start 'investing in' in order to see a long-term financial gain.
Thirty years later, by pure happenstance, we ran into Mr Ross at our local sport memorabilia & collectibles show. When we introduced ourselves and told Mr Ross that we wrote for DC in the 80s, he bellowed "Why talk about 80s comics? Let's talk about 50s comics! They're way more interesting!" and that pretty much set the tone for our interview. (He was actually still riding the high of his recent sale of Action Comics #1 for nearly a million dollars.) All kidding aside, Mr Ross was very pleasant and easy to talk to. We had a chance to ask him what it's like to be a high-value comic book dealer, which DC comics from the 80s will rise in value, his opinions on comic book restoration and grading measures, and some hopeful news for Legion of Super-Heroes fans.
[Editor's Note: Parts of this recorded interview were transcribed out of sequential order, but only so it makes sense to the reader.]
DC in the 80s: "You're a big DC comics collector. You were telling me that you started off collecting DC comics in your youth. Is that correct?"
Gerry Ross: "Well, I'm 61 years old, so if you do the math I was born in 1955. In 1962-1963, when I started to get into comic books at age 7, Marvel comics was only a year or two old...and I didn't buy Marvel comics. The other thing that kept me into DC comics was a lot of people in my age group were watching the Superman TV show. If you had cable TV - which most didn't, but there was always one guy on the block who did - so you went over as a little kid to watch Superman in the 1950s TV show. That hooked you onto Superman with George Reeves, of course. And then it hooked you onto all of the DC titles. It was a big fight in those days: by the late 60s, when Marvel comics was really breaking through and getting a lot of fans, the question was 'Are you a Marvel or DC guy?'. A lot of people were either/or. And Gold Key [comics] we didn't even talk about. Although there were a lot of people, obviously, who read Gold Key and liked them."
DC80s: "Here's the real reason for this interview: I found a recording of a televised news clip from 1986, featuring a very young Gerry Ross smiling into the camera, being interviewed by [what appears to be] a Toronto news program..."
Ross: "That was the National News. Somebody posted it recently. That was when I sold the first six Marvel comics - at the time - for a record price... "
DC80s: "$35,000 USD"
Ross: "...I think it was for more than that, but anyways it doesn't matter. It's so long ago - that was 30 years ago, I was 31 in that video and now I'm 61. So that will give you an idea of how long I've been doing this, because I'm one of the first to even be a "comic book dealer", or set up at a convention, or be involved in conventions, or any of this stuff. Just because of my age that makes me one of the first guys in the hobby. "
DC80s: "I'm understanding that you're more of a high-value comic book collector/dealer. We're not talking about $50 books, we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars of comics per book..."
Ross: "Well, recently we sold the highest rated Action Comics #1 (1938) ever to go on the Heritage Auctions website about a month and a half ago. That went for $956,000 USD. That was exciting to watch that book sell. To watch an unrestored Action Comics #1 go for that much money. I was happy, I have to be honest with you, I was happy. I went in on this deal with another guy in the United States who I know quite well. Believe it or not, he had to do a lot of the legwork on this at the end - I got tied up with some other stuff. Y'know, I've done a lot of high dollar deals over the years."
DC80s: "So is it exciting? Do you sleep with the phone by your pillow like a high-value trading broker waiting for that 2 am phone call? 'Sell! Sell!'"
Ross: "The big problem in this business is that you have to tie up a LOT of money. If I paid $1 for that Action Comics #1 that would be GREAT, but in reality, we paid a lot MORE than one dollar."
DC80s:"I remember you mentioning that in your 1986 newscast. 'I can spend up to one hundred thousand dollars at any given time for good material from the 1940s...even the 1960s.' "
Ross: "Yeah, but I mean AGAIN I had to buy it. It's not like I bought it once, I bought it twice. Twice is enough. I've been around a long time - I've seen a lot of Action Comics #1's go, well... not a lot, but enough to just be amazed. I am amazed that one just sold for three million dollars last year. That's amazing stuff."
DC80s: "You also mentioned to me (in a previous conversation), in regards to a very scarce copy of Action Comics, that you kept buying it, re-selling it, re-buying it and re-selling it to the SAME collector over the span of the thirty years. Am I misquoting you, or is that something that was happening?"
Ross: "Yeah, that was the Action Comics #1 that just sold."
DC80s: "How does that happen that you keep re-buying and re-selling the SAME issue to the SAME collector? Is that a normal thing for collectors to do when they're into high-end dealing? Or was it just a fluke?"
Ross: "Well, the collector died."
DC80s: "Oh! Sorry. Didn't realize that." [feels like a heel]
Ross: "So that's what happened."
DC80s: "What prompted that 1986 National News interview? I'm assuming it was that massive sale of those six early Marvel comic books?"
Ross: "...and they were the Larson copies..."
DC80s: "In the interview, you were talking about the Lamont Larson collection as well as the Mile High collection from Denver, Colorado (also known as the Edgar Church collection). Is that still around? Have any other mint collections of Golden Age comic books been discovered since then? Or is it still only down to the Larson and Church collections?"
Ross: "Well, that was a big collection purchased by Chuck Rozanski who started Mile High Comics in 1976. There were many thousands of books, but they've been, more or less, dispersed over the years. So that's basically where the Church collection is. I wouldn't know, right now, how much Chuck Rozanksi still owns or how much has been sold. Couldn't tell ya."
[Editor's Note: I found a link from the Comic Book Pedigrees website that answered the 'Have any other mint collections of Golden Age comic books been discovered since then' question.]
DC80s: "In the same interview, the anchorman made a joke along the lines of 'If only I'd kept my old copies from back then, I'd be a millionaire today'. I guess he was also try to put you on the spot and asked you "Are there any comics being released NOW that are worth saving? Like brand new ones that'll be worth something in thirty years?" and this was in 1986. You quickly suggested Dark Knight Returns #1 by Frank Miller. You also explained that there's a new phenomena in which there's "comics that are released now that, because of the supply and demand, shoot up in price rapidly and within a period of months can be worth a cover price of a buck or two to a cover price of forty bucks".
Ross: "So what else did I recommend to buy? Was there anything else? I'm curious how smart I was. Or how dumb I was. What I should've said was 'early Marvel comics'. But I probably thought that they were in such great supply that they would last forever - which was a BIG mistake because, I mean, early Marvel comics... well, I think everything has shown big increases: early DC comics AND early Marvel comics. "
DC80s: "Well, the anchorman was pressuring you for something on the stands RIGHT NOW."
Ross: "And that's all I said? Dark Knight Returns #1? Let's look at it: it was, like, five bucks cover price back then, it now goes for $140. That's about a 25 to 30 times return on your money. Now let's look at Action Comics #1 in 1986: A low-grade copy was $5000 USD, it's now worth $125,000 USD. That's a 25 times return on your money. Let's look at Amazing Spider-Man #1: let's look at a high-grade copy in 1981 - just a $1000. Or Amazing Fantasy #15: let's look at a 9.0 copy in 1981: that's a $1000. It's now worth a million dollars. Or let's say a 9.2, 9.4, or a 9.6 (somewhere in that range)... they're worth $500k to a million dollars.So that would've been the GREATEST return on your money."
DC80s: "Absolutely. At that time period in the 80s, investing in Golden Age books - especially scarce mint copies - would've been your best return on investment. I know that you still deal with comic books, more so with Golden Age because that's where the BIG money is..."
Ross: "Well. that's not completely true, I sell everything. When I go to conventions, what I do is... in Canada - I have my BEST stuff here, because I'm in Canada more often now than in the United States for convention, because there's a lot of good conventions in Canada (whereas ten years ago, all the good conventions were in the United States). but in Canada, I bring 30,000 comic books minimum. They're runs. I try not to bring 'dollar' books. Although, I have a complete run of Amazing Spider-Man, Avengers, y'know... and Batman is very hot at DC comics. Well, the 70s Batman, I'd say, are a lot hotter than the 80s Batman."
"In the 80s you have Batman: Year One (Batman #404 - 407, 1987), the Death of Robin books (Batman #426 - 429, 1988). So, those two right there are REALLY popular."
"You also have Year Two in Detective Comics which are pretty highly sought after. You have the first Killer Croc in Batman #357 (1983) - that's very hot. The Killing Joke which is pretty hot. The Vengeance of Bane one-shot is a very hot book."
DC80s:"So, essentially Batman has always been pretty hot, especially in the back issue market. First appearances of major characters, as well as really pivotal issues (written by Miller or whatnot), and stuff with low print runs?"
Ross: "I would say 'not'. I would say Batman has gotten hot - well I don't like using the word 'hot' - so let's just say Batman is the #1 selling DC back issue RIGHT NOW. Twenty years ago it was Superman and Action Comics, but things tend to go in cycles in comic books. So, right now, I believe the reason Batman back issues are so popular right now are due to two factors: the movie and Heath Ledger's portrayal of the Joker. Joker covers are going for a premium right now."
DC80s: "Joker covers? Are you referring to variant covers?"
Ross: "No. I don't know if variants are a good investment or not. My guess would be 'no', but I could be wrong. I don't know for sure about everything. I'm just saying that I think that anything with a Joker cover is good. There's another good Batman issue that I just thought of: Batman #423 (1988). It's a Todd McFarlane cover of Batman."
"Batman Begins, to me, was the key movie. I like Batman very dark because he's psychotic, as far I'm concerned, watching your parents get killed in front of you does not leave you normal. Very angry. The Joker is portrayed perfectly in Batman Begins by Heath Ledger. It's really a shame he died because he would've done a few more portrayals. So that's what really elevated Batman. The thing is, I think Detective Comics #27 (1939) - the first appearance of Batman - is going to set a world record in price when a high-grade copy comes along. Incidentally, I've been working on that. I may be able to have one, hopefully, this year... if we can reach an agreement. I think the book will go for, in higher grade, from four to five million dollars. More or less."
"So, Batman is definitely the most popular DC back issue without any question. In terms of overall sales of newer comics, I'd say Harley Quinn is EXTREMELY popular. So, since we're talking about the early 1980s and onward, we'd need to mention that Batman Adventures #12 (1993) - the first appearance of Harley Quinn - is a $2000 book if you have it slabbed and it says 9.8. And I have a feeling that book is going to go higher. I don't know if it's going to be like an Incredible Hulk #181 9.8 - which is, like, fifteen to twenty thousand dollars. But I think over time it's probably going to be good because Margot Robbie's portrayal is REALLY good - she's going to have her own movie - this is probably going to be a book that is going to keep going up."
DC80s: "So your predictions are based on theatrical performances? Let's suppose a REALLY good Green Lantern film came out next year - a film that blew all the critics away - would you suspect this would bring in new interest for Green Lantern? Early issues of Green Lantern: Emerald Dawn would suddenly shoot up in price?"
Ross: "Yeah, without question. And the reason you can say that is because Iron Man was a very middling character in the Marvel Universe, and then you had the performance by Robert Downey Jr and he just caused interest in Iron Man to go crazy. I'll give you an example: probably six years ago an Iron Man #1 (1968)NM was about $300 USD to $400 USD, an Iron Man #1 (1968)NM is now $1300 USD to $1700 USD, I'd say."
DC80s: "Could you tell me briefly, because you were active as a collector back then, what were the comic book collecting habits in the 1980s? I understand that collectors were trying to restore their Golden and Silver Age books because they just wanted to keep their books looking good, not realizing it would hurt the value of the book? I seem to recall this was a collecting trend in the 80s?"
Ross: "Yeah, things go through phases. The idea was 'Can you make the comic look nicer and get MORE money for it?' So what did collectors and dealers start doing? Y'know,... taking a magic marker and coloring the white stress marks on the spine or corner creases or stuff like that. That's where it started from. And then it got professional - they started learning that you could take tape off of comic books. Restoration has it's place, that's for sure. For example, a comic book with,say, a 7 inch rip up the spine, just for cosmetic purposes, you'd want to seal that tear just so it could survive a little while longer. If you look at most hobbies or collectibles (like art), restoration has a definite place in it. And there's different types of restoration."
"What I find strange is 'pressing'. The pressing of comics, in my opinion, is really over-hyped. There's only so much you can do with a comic book just pressing it in a heat press with Mylar protection. It really does not change it that much, if at all. And it can sometimes hurt it. And I've seen that - guys who don't know what they're doing. We used to use that pressing to take out spine roll. To do that properly, you need to take out the staples of the comic. Which means you have to open them up in the middle, take out the staples and you can take out spine roll by progressively pressing it and making a new fold in the comic down the spine. Just to press a comic by itself is not going to take out any creases or anything. What you're actually doing is your imparting some gloss from the Mylar onto the comic by heating Mylar. That's all your doing. So when people think they're really improving themselves by pressing a comic book, they have no clue what they're talking about."
"Basically, 'slabbing' books started in 2000. Sending your books down to Florida and having them graded by CGC. This makes it a pure collectible and a pure 'investment grade' comic. The only problem with slabbing books is that the grades are assigned rather than calculated. To me, someone with a math background, a number should represent a calculation. In other words, defects should be assigned numerical values - they should be added up or subtracted from a 100 point scale - so your number has validity. Right now, the numbers aren't valid because it's like a beauty contest and you're just ranking it subjectively. Supposedly, your subjectively is objectively compared to a collector's subjectivity. It's third-party graded, so that's why people like it. They're saying 'okay, the person grading it has no ax to grind' but my problem is there's always going to be, for the really expensive books, outside influences affecting the grade. It would be much better if we had an actual grading scale where we could assign defect points - subtract the points from a hundred - and come up with a number that is valid. Right now it's like you're judging a dog contest. Why not assign defects points to begin with so you have a uniform way of calculating it? They don't want to do that because it would take a lot of time, obviously. But they should do it for the very expensive books. I don't know if that'll ever happen, but that's the way it should be done: to have a system where the number means something. Otherwise they should just call it a Very Good or Fine. That would be more accurate than giving it an actual number. Numbers are objective and precise. Whereas this is like you're looking at a Cocker Spaniel at a dog show and saying 'This is a great breed, I want to give it a 9' and I say 'Well, I'll give it an 8'."
DC80s: "I'm going to pick your brain here for a second. Here's the theoretical situation: I have $200 USD in cash to spend, and I can pick any bunch of DC books from 1980s (barring Batman). What do you recommend I should invest in in order to see some sort of growth or investment value? No Batman, no Detective Comics, no Harley Quinn. Nothing like that."
Ross:"And it has to be from the 1980s? Alright. Teen Titans. New Teen Titans #1 (1980) is probably pretty undervalued. I hear there's lots of rumors about a Teen Titans movie or something else. And of course you've got New Teen Titans #2 (1980) - the first appearance of Deathstroke - people seem to really want that one. That one's going up in price a lot. And all the other issues too are petty good. Tales of the Teen Titans #44 (1984) is the first Nightwing - Robin becomes Nightwing. That's a good issue to pick up. "
DC80s: "Would you go with anything from...say... Legion of Super-Heroes?"
Ross: "You can get those for next to nothing now. You can get them for a buck or two a piece. Most of the Superboy and Legion of Super-Heroes - they start at issue #222 (1976) - you can get most of those issues REALLY cheap."
DC80s: "Are you a LoSH fan? Did you read them when you were younger?"
Ross: "Of course! Of course, yeah!"
DC80s: "What do you think the problem with the Legion of Super-Heroes is? Why can't they hold a series? They had their heyday in the 80s, but they just can't retain sales for an ongoing series now."
Ross: "There's a lot of 'em. Again, it comes down to if they're delineated properly. From my time period it was Saturn Girl, Lightning Lad and Cosmic Boy. Those were the first three. If you look at Adventure Comics #247 (1958) - they're first appearance - they're on the cover. I think there's rumors they will be appearing on the Supergirl TV show. You can have a lot of fun with that."
"So yeah, I'd say that if you want to buy something cheap that could go up a lot, buy the late 70s Superboy and Legion of Super-Heroes comics or any Superboy comics with the Legion in them. Mike Grell did a lot of great work in those books. And Adventures Comics, too. The first three Legion of Super-Heroes appearances: Adventure Comics #247, Adventure Comics #267 (1959) and Action Comics #267 (1960)."
DC80s: "In your opinion, is it better to spend a lot of money on one really high-grade copy? Or to diversify and buy a few okay or very good copies with my money versus buying one really high grade copy?"
Ross: "For investment purposes, it's better to get a high-grade copy."
DC80s: "So the highest grade you can afford, basically?"
Ross: "Yeah, FINE or better. A lot of people are really into that. They want higher grade copies."
DC80s: "Are you still running 1,000,000 Comix?"
Ross: "I started the whole company. All the stores got franchised out many years ago. For me, the best place to be is NOT in a store, the best place for me to be is buying collections and going to conventions because you have fun and get to check out different locales. We all need variety in our life."
DC80s: "Thank you so much for chatting with us, Mr Ross."
