Art Dive; Trevor Von Eeden - DC in the 80s

Trevor Von Eeden is one of those mysterious dudes you saw occasionally, and rarely do you see Von Eeden on "all time favorite artists" lists. But Trevor Von Eeden is absolutely one of my favorite artists of all time, and I wanted to explore some of his work. I wish he was a regular on a book after 1985, in my prime years of DC in the 80s childhood obsession, but he wasn’t. He had that Steve Ditko vibe to me, like “What happened to him, where is he?” I knew what happened with Steve Ditko after the internet became a thing, but still Trevor Von Eeden remained a mystery. I felt his work was this funked-up Alex Toth, more technical 80s version of a 70s-era Frank Robbins. But he had his own distinguishable energy. It was so fresh, so different from everything else out. It was dynamic, beautiful, and I wanted more.

Trevor Von Eeden in 2008.

I now follow him on Facebook, and I can tell you for sure he is alive and well. He’s even begun going to Conventions, and I hope I get the chance to meet him someday. I’d love to ask him about his experiences when he first began in the business, the bs he had to go through, and maybe the bs that eventually made him peace out. He’s also super passionate about his beliefs, which I love. If he did stories about what he is passionate about, I would buy it.

I thought it would be cool to read some of his work right now, and explore the art. Like an art historian. So pretend this is a DC in the 80s museum, and I’m the guy they gave you when you asked for a tour and we are going into the Trevor Von Eeden room. If you don’t like how I do it, another tour is starting soon.

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Batman Annual 8. 1982.

First of all, who else worked on this book. Mike W. Barr, a SUPER underrated Batman writer. His Detective run with Alan Davis might be my favorite of the 80s. John Costanza on lettering, Lynn Varley on colors and the legendary Dick Giordano on editing. Lettered, colored and edited by the Dark Knight Returns team.

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This main villain and his henchman. The henchman is a classic square jaw goon, and the classic hooded no face main villain, but with such powerful evil portrayed just through the eyes. The goon almost foreshadows a future Marv from Sin City, while the hooded villain recalls others who used religion as a shield for their hate.

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Look at that line and shadow work. I love that huge bat shadow falling on the dead victims, and then the Batplane underneath the sky and birds. It feels like the two pages are speaking to each other.

Here you see how Von Eeden played with perspectives, and his amazing symmetry. There’s something special going on here, a real angular exploration. 

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Batman totally backhanded this fake Jesus character. Like "Really dude?"

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BTW the story line is about some poison being introduced into Gotham’s water supply. Joker did this, Scarecrow, Ra’s Al Ghul. A popular Batman trope. I will say just as I’m reading this, it’s a really well told story. It’s an A to B to C story, very early 80’s comic book, but Barr has a way of narrative that fits Batman well. It’s the most “detective” of the Batman stories I’ve read. Von Eeden’s art is killing it tho.

The link work, the circles. I’d say Von Eeden is more of an alchemist than a cartoonist in this book. I feel like I am looking more through a book on Carl Jung, rather than a Batman comic. Am I projecting?

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Damn Batman is coooolddd. He's right though.

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Green Arrow limited series Issue 1, 1983.

Mike W. Barr writing again. This time John Costanza letters again, with Dick Giordano on the inks, Len Wein is editor, and Tom Zuiko is the colorist. Wouldn’t it have been funny if George Costanza’s cousin was the letterer at DC, and Jerry Seinfeld got to meet people who worked on Superman? They could have done an episode about Jerry being really sad Superman was dead and George tried to buy every issue of the story in NYC and destroy them so it would become really rare and only he would have it, until some store in Newark suddenly made millions because everyone took the train there to buy it.

Here it seems the line work is less experimental and more straight forward. Von Eeden is channeling Frank Miller in some of the shots, and I could easily have seen him working on Daredevil during this era. Still, it’s very much a unique look, and Giordano’s inks aren’t drowning out his style. It seems like it was only a few panels. Sometimes it feels like Von Eeden is experimenting with styles mid story. Love it.

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This has a really great story. There’s this love established between Oliver (Green Arrow) and an older rich lady. I was really feeling it. I’m also feeling this experimentation of panels. It gives this page the chaos it needs to convey an explosion and fire, and everything falling apart.

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Look at the sadness conveyed during the reading of a will of someone Oliver cared for, while the deceased's children argue over Queen getting a fortune, he could care less. Love how he gets smaller as their conversation gets more heated.

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I love everything about this page. So stylized. Again the panels are loose, but Von Eeden’s symmetry plays into it. Also, his moon scenes really get me. I saw this in the Batman Annual as well.

Why didn't we get 20 issues of this???? If you haven’t already, go out and get this Green Arrow mini-series.

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Look at this page in issue 2. This is classic illustrating. Some Ditko, but a style completely Von Eeden's own. The next two pages after this make the comic worth whatever you pay for it. Just go buy it.

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In Issue 3, I feel Von Eeden takes a step up in artistry. The first page is one of the best pages in comics, IMO. Look at Count Vertigo sweating! The story telling is all in the eyes. Amazing stuff.

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I really enjoyed the minimalism on this page too. Recalls some of Jim Aparo's 1970s work, some Miller stuff on Daredevil. GIVE ME 20 ISSUES OF THIS STORYTELLING. 

Wow did I enjoy the 3 issues of Green Arrow that I’ve owned for decades and never read. What a waste. Or maybe now was just a great time to read it. Que sera sera. I have to get #4 on Ebay like right now. Man, these shipping and handling fees. I would so rather get this at a shop or a con. 

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Thriller #1.

As a kid I thought Thriller was about Michael Jackson, and even when I found it wasn’t, I still didn’t want to read it. I DJ weddings and I’ll play MJ, but I’m just into him. Janet Jackson I love though. Rhythm Nation FTW. But I bought some issues a few years ago in the dollar boxes, just because I knew Von Eeden was on them. First of all, if it’s on Baxter Paper, so it’s amazing. Baxter Paper feels like "Hey I'm a Special Comic!!". Second of all Robert Loren Fleming, the writer, worked on Ambush Bug, which is still one of the greatest series of all time. So I can't wait to read this. 

There is a lot of experimentation in this. It’s very quick, fluid. It’s almost like a dream. They’re introducing characters at a breakneck speed and it feels like they need to get them all out before they can really start the story.

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This is a particularly interesting sequence that feels like it could work in a Deadman story too. I love the face and the shading. Von Eeden is such a strong, interesting inker too. 

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Love this drawing. This character Data blows my mind, the inking on him is so different. BTW this Data has the ability of a few 647k computers, so watch out Microsoft Word documents. 

I read #2 and just feel this needs more attention, story wise. I'll get all the Von Eeden issues and read them all at once. Or I won't, who knows. So hard to find time to read anything. They will go in the read pile, which has books that I bought in 1986, so yeah.

🔻

Finally, the classic Batman and the Outsiders #15.

Here, Von Eeden’s work gets dirtier, and so much more experimental. Heavy pen lines, crazy inking. I wonder if this was a fun issue for him, or whether it was part of the process of him leaving DC. Another Mike W. Barr collaboration.

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There is this hot Outsiders versus New Olympians splash page. It’s so different, so much more independent then what you were seeing at the time. Poster-worthy. I also wish Maxie Zeus was a bigger Batman villain. He felt like a major player in the 80s, but now, he's not even top 100.

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Katana bitch-slapping the archer Diana, and Antaeus floating. Von Eeden did so much with eyes, that it was lost if you looked at the pages too quickly.

The issue was great, but felt like it was over too quick. Much like I feel about Trevor Von Eeden’s career at DC in the 80s. I'm going to finish Thriller, and hunt down more Trevor Von Eeden work from the 80s. I think he's a forgotten master, and although he helped create Black Lightning, he just doesn't get the credit he deserves for his work.

-Mark Belkin

The 'How to Shop for Original Comic Book Art' Guide by Travis Ellisor

DC in the 80s is extremely lucky to have the privilege of chatting with Travis Ellisor (curator of the Mostly Comic Art tumblr blog) who is not just an original comic book art enthusiast, but a collector as well. Today, Mr Ellisor shares tips for comic book fans who are either thinking about purchasing original comic book art or are simply are curious about the whole process. There's really no point in us yakking any more about this, so let's just jump right into it...


DC in the 80s: How long have you been collecting original art/commissions?

Travis Ellisor: Well, I‘ve been a big fan of comics and comic art since I was a little kid. As more artists started putting their work on the internet, I became an even bigger fan of the art itself. I especially loved process pieces, seeing the pencils, inks and colors in stages. I began following many of my favorite artists online, and that’s when I began to learn about commissions. Many collectors seemed to have themes, and some had very interesting ideas and pairings of characters that you’ll likely never see in published comics.

My first commission was of Karate Kid fighting Green Arrow (Connor Hawke), drawn by Derec Donovanin in 2009. Derec had posted on deviantART (a website featuring many artists) that he was currently taking commissions and I figured that he would be a great artist to start with. I was a big Green Arrow fan, and Derec had drawn a fantastic-looking Connor Hawke miniseries. Also, I am a HUGE Legion of Super-Heroes fan, and Karate Kid is my favorite member. Since Connor Hawke was such a great martial artist, I thought it would be cool to put him in a match-up with Val Armorr. Derec was all for the idea and delivered a fantastic piece to me shortly afterwards. In fact, I liked the commission so much that I decided that "Karate Kid vs." would be the major theme for my collection. And now I have over a hundred Karate Kid commissions!

Karate Kid vs Green Arrow (Connor Hawke) - illustrated by Derec Donovan and colored by Simon Gough

Also, I should point out that working with Derec Donovan on that commission was such a great experience that it lead to me commissioning him many more times, and we have since become friends. It’s always cool when your favorite artists turn out to be nice people. I highly recommend Derec to anyone interested in commissions.

In fact, most of the artists I’ve commissioned are just incredibly nice, cool people. Mike McKone, Chris Batista, Evan Shaner, Norm Breyfogle, Phil Hester, Steven Butler, Tim Lattie, Tom Fowler, Gene Gonzales, Mike Rooth, Dave Stokes, Andrew MacLean, Mike Hawthorne, Brian Churilla, Jay Fosgitt, Andy Kuhn, Ron Salas, Nick Pitarra, Joel Carroll, Scott Wegener, Chad Thomas, Cory Smith, Kyle Starks, Nathan Stockman, well I could on for a while, but you get the idea. There are many awesome, friendly artists out there.

It’s also really cool when you discover an artist’s work before they get big. For instance, seeing James Harren become such a major talent, and knowing that I already had three commissions from him. It’s like knowing about a band before they sign a major record label deal and get mega-popular. I’ve had that happen a few times now. I would say that I have an eye for artistic talent, but that sounds like bragging.

Karate Kid vs OMAC - illustrated by James Harren

DC80s: What's the most that you've paid for a commission?

Ellisor: I *think* that my most expensive piece is my Karate Kid vs. Bengal commission that Humberto Ramos drew for me. But my memory about that stuff is horrible. I do remember that it was expensive, but oh so worth it! I set that one up with his agent Joseph Damon and picked it up at a convention in New Orleans. They were both great to work with.

Karate Kid vs Marvel's Bengal - illustrated by Humberto Ramos

My most inexpensive pieces would be the ones that I’ve gotten for free. Sometimes an artist will throw in a free sketch or page when they think that they took too long on a commission, which is cool but unnecessary. Or an artist might do a sketch for free just because I’ve been a good repeat customer to them. I also once got a sketch for paying for a guy’s dinner one night after a convention.

Digital colors are another kind of commission that I sometimes get, when I really want to see a piece colored. Simon Gough has been my main go-to guy for that, and he always does incredible work, putting a lot of thought into how he colors each piece. He is amazing. Jeremiah Skipper has colored a few commissions for me as well, and he is another great up and coming talent.

Adam Strange - illustrated by Nate Stockman and colored by Jeremiah Skipper

DC80s: How do you store your commissions/original art? Do you sell or trade them, and if so how does that work?

Ellisor: Framing is expensive and my wall space is limited, so most of my art is stored in binders. You can find them at most art supply stores, or order them online through companies like Blick Art Materials.

And I’ve never sold any of my commissions, though I have had an offer or two.

DC80s: I'm understanding that you plunged into this 'buying commissions/original comic art' thing on your own. Can you tell us about any hard lessons learned or missteps you took along the way? Any advice you can give to anyone who is thinking about taking up this hobby?

Ellisor: One of the first things I learned about setting up a commission, particularly through e-mails, is to be VERY clear about what you want. And make sure you ALWAYS provide reference. Artists usually have a good idea of what characters look like, but even they forget the details of a lot of costumes. And most characters have worn many costumes, so providing reference helps to ensure that you get what you want. Also, there are many Spider-Men, Robins, Green Lanterns, etc. nowadays so be very clear about which character in particular that you want drawn.

Be sure to give the artist some freedom to work his or her magic. For instance, I’ll ask them to draw, say, Karate Kid vs. Galactus, but that’s all the detail I’ll go into. I don’t ask for specific fight choreography or anything like that. These guys know what they’re doing and most of them have great imaginations. Give them freedom and they’ll often amaze you.

As for prices, well, that’s up to each commissioner as to how much they want to spend. If an artist is too expensive, let it go and don’t try to haggle. But if you really want a commission from them, then save up for it. Some years I get a lot of commissions, some years hardly any. Everyone has to follow their own budget. Many artists have commission prices listed on their websites and most of them who have art agents will have their rates listed on the agent’s site. Google whichever artist you’re looking for, and you’ll usually find the information you’re looking for. If not, e-mail them through their website or contact them via social media. Almost every artist in the industry is online in some form or another.

If you set up a commission online to be mailed to you, be prepared to be patient. In my experience, almost all commissions take longer than the artist estimates. This can happen because of many factors, both personal and professional. They have careers and families that come first, and you have to respect that. But I have generally found that they almost all come through in the end, and the commission ends up being worth the wait.

If you’re suspicious of an artist’s reputation with commissions, do some research or ask about them on some original comic art collecting forums. Or Google "Deadbeats In Commissions".

If you’re really concerned about the reliability of the artist but still want to give it a try, just don’t pay up-front. Tell them you won’t pay until you see a picture or low-res scan of the finished commission. Or offer to pay half up-front, and half on completion. You should be able to work something out. And if not, move on.

If you plan on commissioning an artist at a convention, make sure you find them very early in the show. This makes sure that they have time to actually draw your commission, and a lot of artists have sketch lists for their shows which fill up quickly. And bring cash. Some artists are equipped to take payments in other forms, like credit cards, but cash is always welcome.

DC80s: If you're buying a commission/original comic art from a third party dealer (ex: someone on e-bay who's NOT the artist), is there a way to verify that's it legit? That it's not a counterfeit or forgery?

Ellisor: It's difficult to be 100% sure on those things. Personally, I'd start off by closely examining the scan and comparing it to the published work. If the seller is only providing a low-res picture of the art, I wouldn't trust it. If possible, ask the artist themselves about it. Most artists can be contacted online and many don't mind verifying things like this (I see it happen on social media from time to time). If the artist can't be contacted, ask some experts, such as fellow collectors or art dealers. And of course, check the seller's feedback ratings. If anything doesn't look right, don't take a chance on it. If it looks too good to be true, like a Curt Swan Superman cover going for less than a hundred dollars, don't trust it.

DC80s: As an owner/collector of original comic book art and a curator of a fascinating blog dealing with comic art, can you tell us about the best practices of posting comic art on the internet and why it's important?

Ellisor: Well, if you want to post your personal collection, I highly recommend Comic Art Fans. That site is a fantastic resource. You can browse through other people’s collections, and make friends with other collectors there.

If you just like comic art and want to share things you’ve found online, ALWAYS credit the artist. They put in a lot of hard work into their art, and they deserve the credit.

For instance, I love looking at comic art, and one great place for seeing art is Tumblr. But after spending some time on Tumblr, I started noticing a lot of art being posted with no artist credit, or sometimes the wrong artist being credited. For instance, I once saw a cropped panel of Thanos posted on Tumblr that only said “George Perez” below it. The first thing that bothered me was that the drawing was obviously not by Perez, but by Jim Starlin and Al Milgrom. And the issue the drawing was from should have been credited. Because hey, if someone likes the art, they might want to check out the comic it’s from! Now this stuff might not bother some people, but it bothered me. So, I started my own Tumblr at Mostly Comic Art tumblr blog where I post comic art from throughout comics history. I spend so much time browsing comic art online, I figured I could at least spread the love.

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Recommended Art Collecting Resources (provided by Travis):


All-around great site

• Comic Art Fans

Original Comic Art Message Forums

• Collectors Society
• Statue Forum

Dealers/Agents

• Felix Comic Art 
• Albert Moy
• Spencer Beck
• Anthony Snyder
• Kwan Chang
• Catskill Comics
• Splash Page Comic Art  
• Essential Sequential
• Comic Art House
• Artcoholics
• More Great Art   
• Pencil Ink Color
• Chiaroscuro Studios
• Cadence Comic Art
• Spanish Inq

Art Auctions

• Heritage Auctions 
• Comic Link

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This article has run a little longer than expected. In our second article, we interview Travis Ellisor about his favorite commissioned comic book original art from his personal collection and how he first got into comics. Needless to say, our next article is going to be very image-heavy with some never-before-seen original comic book art, so stayed tuned for that.

-Justin

The Mike Grell interview: Grell talks about his 1980s work at DC comics

This is the second-half of our interview with Mike Grell at the 2016 Ottawa Comiccon. As previously mentioned in the first part of this interview, this was recorded while sitting with Mike as he drew commissions and interacted with fans from his table. The entire interview lasted about an hour and, due to my being slightly nervous, was all over the place (in terms of subject matter). In order to make it easy on the reader, we separated the transcription into two parts organized by topic - this half focuses on his DC comics work. The first half mainly deals with his work with Jon Sable Freelance and it's influence on his Green Arrow revamp of the late 80s.

Just as no man is an island, and there's no 'I' in 'team' and any other phrase you can think of that involves individuals not being able to succeed without the help of others, there was no way I could've entered this interview so knowledgeable about Grell's work without listening/reading the other interviews Grell had conducted with various other bloggers/media outlets. There's quite a few I want to mention, so I'll list them after the interview. Anyways, let's get this show on the road...

DC in the 80s: "At some point, you said that you didn't want to do superheroes anymore."

Mike Grell: "That's right."

DC80s: "The rumor is: you were so burned out from pencilling the Legion of Super-Heroes that after that you were just like 'I'm finished! I want to do different stuff, but I'm done with superheroes!'"

LoSH from the 1970s. art by Mike Grell.

Grell:"I actually declined Chris Claremont when he came to me and said 'so Mike, when are we going to get together and do mutants?' and I told him I was burnt-out on superheroes. I was happy doing Jon Sable and leaving superheroes behind... and I swear to God it never donned on me that,  here we are in Canada at the time, and Chris had flown up there in his private Lear Jet. Sonuvagun."

DC80s:"You worked on Warlord up until issue #72? I know you were drawing and writing for the first 50 issues?"

Grell: "Actually I wrote the series until issue #54 and then I handed it off to Sharon Wright [Grell's ex-wife]. She began by ghosting me (we worked on the plots together) and then I just handed it over and the rest of the writing to her. I eventually stepped out altogether and let her take all the credit and do the writing herself."

DC80s: "You left Warlord prior to taking on Jon Sable Freelance. You dropped your Tarzan newspaper strip, you let go of Starslayer (it went to John Ostrander eventually) - you basically focused all of your attention on Jon Sable, really."

Grell: "Yes."

DC80s: "Regarding Mike Gold's comment about 'burying the hatchet'... what was he specifically referring to?"

Grell: "It was that I left DC because I wanted to own my own characters. I knew that, going back, I wouldn't be able to. But the offer writing Green Arrow was enough to get me there."

DC80s: "...and that's why you slowly phased out of Warlord and went more towards creator-owned material such asJon Sable Freelance and Starslayer..."

"Back to your work on Green Arrow, I remember you had a very major story arc in which Ollie gets framed for bombing a vessel in the Panama Canal. There was then a manhunt for Ollie as he was now identified as a state fugitive. He's framed by Eddie Fyers...  who I heard was actually based on [writer/editor] Archie Goodwin..."

Eddie Fryers on the left, Archie Goodwin on the right

Grell: "Yes he was." [laughs]

DC80s: "In appearance or character?"

Grell: "In appearance, not character. Archie was deceptively physically fit. Outwardly, he gave the impression of being 'rather bookish', and you'd be standing there talking to him, and suddenly he would fall face-forward onto the floor, catch himself on his hands, do several push-ups and snap himself right back up to his feet.  What sealed the bond of friendship between the two of us was that when I was introduced to him, he did that with me, and I immediately dropped on my face and did the same thing and we hit it off and got along like gangbusters ever since. So yes, I modeled Freddie Fyers physically after Archie Goodwin. It was an example of how you can't discount someone just because of the way they look. I wanted him specifically to look more 'book-ish' - to be 'nerd-like' - but really he'd be this very very dangerous character."

DC80s: "Physically he's a pretty formidable foe for Oliver. He's a master marksman and there's a few times he goes toe-to-toe with Ollie and is able to hold his own - and Ollie's supposed to be this peak physical human. You really played up Fyers physical competency. Later on, Freddie becomes a mentor to Connor Hawke - but that was after you finished your Green Arrow run..."

Eddie Fyers as he appears in CW's The Arrow

Grell: "It's one of those situations, like it was with The Warlord, where you create a character for a major company and they own it. That's all there is to it. It's a work-for-hire. You have to know that going in. Occasionally, I've created some pretty good characters only to see them go down the road and into the hands of somebody else. It's one of those things - you have to learn to walk away with no regrets."

DC80s: "I also remember Green Arrow v2 #17 being somewhat infamous because there's fully exposed female breasts in that issue. The Comic Book Journal or the Comic Book Reader really made a big fuss about it. It was a 2-issue story arc where a Mountie is disguised as a biker..."

Grell: "Oh! Oh right! That one! The 'Horseman' story"

DC80s: "Yes! Was the 'Horseman' character based on a particular character or...?"

             
Grell: "The story was based on an incident that actually occurred where a Canadian motorcycle sold a girl to an American motorcycle gang and shipped her down to Florida and forced her into the sex trade. When she attempted to escape, to set an example, the motorcycle gang crucified her."

DC80s: "Holy [inaudible]! I never heard about that one..."

Grell: "Oh yeah. I got a lot of undeserved credit for being a misogynist because people thought I made that stuff up. Or somehow interpreted that that was MY idea of a good story to tell because I was into brutalizing women. Nothing could be further from the truth. The truth is that most of my best characters are women. My strongest characters are women. And I don't make this stuff up - I read it in the papers and I incorporate it into my stories. It's just a fact of life that women are more frequently victims than men - so they are the ones on the receiving end more times than not. On the one hand it's unfortunate, and on the other hand it's all basically fodder for stories. I'm not promoting violence against women."

DC80s: "I never saw it as 'promoting' violence against women. I read it more as 'raising awareness' about what's going on out there. You tackle quit a few social issues in Green Arrow: there's stories about runaways, there's at least one story about AIDs - and the series was geared towards a 'mature audience' - like, I'd go so far as to label it as a 'pre-Vertigo' book. The Vertigo imprint was dealing with a lot of mature content - and that's what your Green Arrow series was doing. You were basically ahead of your time."

Grell: "The AIDs story that I did for Green Arrow v2 #5 - 6 (1989) was actually inspired by things that were going on in Seattle at the time. There was a long string of violence against the LGBT community in one of the parks and it was pretty much worth your life to go there after dark."    
  
DC80s: "You were living in Seattle at the time?"

Grell: "Oh yeah. That's why I moved Green Arrow to Seattle. The main purpose was to move him away from the mythical Star City and anchor him solidly into the real world. The reason I chose Seattle, instead of any place else, was because I'm a small-town boy from Northern Wisconsin and I've only lived in 3 cities in my life - Chicago, Seattle and New York City - and you have to be able to write about a city with some kind of authority. Otherwise you end up writing about the slums on rodeo drive. or y'know, the ram-shackled sleazebag Fairmont Château Laurier hotel.  You have to know what you're writing about to the extent that you can make it believable. I moved him to Seattle and that's what led to the change in the costume. " [the crack about the Chateau Laurier was a regional joke, it's one of Ottawa's most prestigious hotels -J]

DC80s: "Seattle's always raining, so now he wears a hood."

Grell: "Well, maybe not always, Seattle gets 3 inches of rain less per year than Miami Beach. Miami gets all of their rain in one weekend accompanied by a hurricane. So, the hood makes sense. The long sleeves made sense. Trousers, as opposed to spandex, made sense. I've worn spandex - while performing with the Seattle Knights. I will tell you that when it's chilly and rainy, spandex is NOT warm at all."

DC80s: "Speaking of strong women - women characters you've written - we've got Black Canary. Now, in the beginning of Longbow Hunters, her being captured and tortured is a major catalyst for the events that occur in your Green Arrow ongoing series. It sends Ollie over the edge - he ends up killing a man out of anger - the idea that he could of simply incapacitated Canary's attacker instead of killing him is explored in the ongoing series. A very popular analogy given is that he jumped off a cliff and he can't come back."

Grell: "Exactly. And the reason that I did that was that I wanted to make a change in the character so I could change the type of stories that I'd be able to write. Denny O'Neil had written a very famous and popular story line where Ollie kills a man by accident and his response to that incident in his life is to withdraw from the world, essentially, and literally joins a monastery and vows to never ever kill again [Flash v1 #218 (1972)]. Well, I wasn't going to be able to do my kind of stories if he persisted in that attitude. So in order to make a change like that, I felt that it was necessary to have an inciting incident that would cause him to break that vow. I made it clear that he had the choice. Ollie had already demonstrated that he could have easily shot the weapon out of the torturer's hand when he was threatening Dinah with it, but y'know, the S.O.B. just deserved to die. Ollie, having made that decision, now he has to live with it and it affects not only him, but Dinah. Everything that happened there was for a purpose - it made the characters more interesting. Their lives together changed. They went from having a healthy and rather robust sex life to Dinah not being able to be stand being touched."

DC80s: "Was it you who introduced the 'vivacious sex life of Ollie and Dinah' thing? Prior to you taking over the title in 1988, was it ever really hinted that Arrow and Canary were getting it on like rabbits? Did you bring that to Green Arrow?"
    
Grell: "Oh... I'm not sure that I brought it to the characters, but I think that they were boyfriend/girlfriend for so long and mature people - you'd have to be a moron not to understand that they had a sex life. So when it was time for me to do the characters in Longbow Hunters, I just put it right straight out there. These people have a relationship. It's sexual. They are probably the two horniest characters in comics. If not the horniest, they are the ones getting the most sex. It's a healthy kind of sex life, y'know? They play games, they roleplay. She puts on the Black Canary costume before she goes to bed - just because, y'know?"

DC80s: "Dinah refusing to marry Ollie (in the Longbow Hunters), was that kind of a 'Mike Grell message' about marriage not being super-important? As in, it's just a piece of paper and it's the relationship that actually counts?"

[I asked him this as his wife sat beside us. Not my finest hour. -J]

"You've also stated that when there are two romantically involved characters in a series, as soon as they marry them the series is basically over. There's no more interesting stories to tell or one of them gets killed or they have a baby. And then 'bam!' the series is over."

[me, backpedaling -J]

Grell: "Exactly! The woman's role disappears. She either gets killed off or she has a baby and has to retire to take care of the baby. Or she has a baby and the baby is killed. I mean, something like that always happens. It's a last desperate act of a failing series when they do that. Look at Moonlighting [TV series: 1985 - 1989], look at Magnum, P.I. [TV series: 1980 - 1989]. As soon as the ratings fail they know that they can get one last season out of it if they marry the character off. Then what happens? All the viewers lose interest because all that tension is gone."

DC80s: "So, Canary not wanting to marry Arrow was more for story purposes and it wasn't your own personal statement about marriage in general? There was no subtext to it?"

Grell: "Right. When I was working on the Warlord - when I left the book. In fact, when Sharon stopped writing the book, we left off with the Warlord and Tara split up. I left story notes saying that as far as the rest of the series goes, it's mostly important that they stay separated for about a year before you bring them back together. Because, ultimately, the audiences want to see the two lovers get back together and reconcile or whatever. I can't off-hand name the writer who took over it, but he thought it was just wrong for married people to be separated so his very first issue has them back together again."

Warlord and Tara on the cover of The Warlord #41 (1981)

"I did the same split up with Ollie and Dinah. The reason for that was that there was an untold story with Shado. There was an unfulfilled relationship between her and Ollie that I wanted to explore and I could not do that while Ollie was still with Dinah. I couldn't have Ollie leave Dinah for another woman. So, I had to all be one of those unfortunate moments in time when a young girl who's attracted to Ollie grabs him and kisses him, and he kisses her back. Dinah happens to walk in, - and if she hadn't, nothing would've come of it - Dinah walks in and sees that kiss and that's it. She basically throws him out. My intent then was to keep them separated long enough so that Ollie could legitimately have a relationship with Shado."

Green Arrow #75 (1993)

DC80s: "Shado was another strong female character you created, and in her mini-series [Shado: Song of the Dragon (1991 - 1992)] that you wrote - that I think Gray Morrow painted - you go into the detailed history of the Yakuza. Were you in Japan at some point? You write what you like to read - that's how you work - so you had a major fascination with Asian/Yakuza culture at some point?"

Grell: "I have an interest in it. I'm certainly fascinated by it. I research my stories in great depth. I studied the Yakuza more during Longbow Hunters so I'd have something viable to put on the table. I think I basically fell back to what Agatha Christie said about reading a book. She said 'when you're reading a novel you get 10% plot, 20% characterization, and 70% whatever the writer knows best'. and that's very much the case of it. I wrote a story that I was interested in, about things that I was interested in. I was keenly interested in Japanese culture, I love the idea of this zen archer being superior in almost every way to Ollie and it coming down to the difference between pulling the bow with your arms and pulling the bow with your spirit."

DC80s: "In that mini-series, the main cast of characters consist of a Vietnam vet, a WWII vet, there's Shado and then there's a monk. It goes back to you knowing about war and Vietnam - which goes back to you drawing on experience. The big thing here is that this was Shado's last major story arc - actually, I think she had one more in Green Arrow after that - but the point is that Shado just had so much story potential and it never gets fully explored. We never see what happens between Shado, Ollie and their child (Robert)."

Shado as she appears in CW's The Arrow

Grell: "Unfortunately, there is a story line I had in the pipeline that never got done because DC decided that they needed to reboot the character entirely. This is sort of understandable. When I left the Green Arrow series, the fans were every bit as loyal to me as they were to Dave Cockrum when I took over the Legion of Super-Heroes and my then-editor, Murray Boltinoff, then warned me that I was going to get hate mail. I didn't understand it and he said 'well for starters, you're replacing the most popular artist we've ever had on the book and to top it all off, we've going to kill off one of their favorite characters in your first issue.' I got to be on the receiving end of that, so I understood the situation of that poor guy who had to follow me [on Green Arrow]. They were facing a very staunch readership that were not very happy that I left the book. After all of that time of negative fan mail and stuff, it was just better for the sake of the series, and certainly for anyone who was following me on it, that they basically dropped my story lines and did a reboot on their own. I think that's why the character got picked up and was popular enough to continue as long as it has. They only really screwed it up one time when they married Ollie and Dinah. But then they rebooted again, and well..."


DC80s: "What would've you have done with Shado's baby? The story you said you had in the works, but never saw the light of day?"

Grell: "I had a proposal that was intended to kick off her own series. In it, she would be trying to raise this child while being hunted by the Yakuza. I was going to bring the two of them back together throughout the series so that Ollie would be part of the boy's life as he's growing up. The unpublished story basically faded out when the boy's about 7 years old and it would've been the right timing for publication so you could say 'this is how many years have gone by' very similar to the theme you see in [Koike/Kojima's] Lone Wolf and Cub. or even [Max Allan Collin's] Road to Perdition. Same thing. The adult caring for the child will be pursued by dark forces around them."

DC80s: "Did you think much of Black Canary? I believe her first Post-Crisis appearance was in Legends. It's revealed that she's the daughter of Black Canary Sr. She's then a regular in Giffen/DeMatteis' Justice League/Justice League International for about a year. Following that, in Longbow Hunters, she's tortured - as a result of that, her Canary cry is extinguished. I realize that you were trying to ground these characters to reality, so I'm guessing that's why you took away her meta-powers?"

Grell: "I ignored her pre-existing Canary Cry. I just never dealt with it. It was other people who came up with some kind of a scenario where she lost her Canary Cry powers while she was being tortured. It was contrived. It wasn't me. As far as I was concerned, in my reality, there was no super powers. That's why when Hal Jordan appeared, it was as 'Hal' and not as Green Lantern."

"The statement that Julie Schwartz made back in the day really applied, he said 'At DC comics, we have Earth-one, Earth-two, Earth-prime and Earth-Grell' and someone asked 'so, who's on Earth-Grell?' and Julie pointed at me and said 'Him! Leave him alone, he's doing his own thing!' so I never considered myself bound to the continuity of other writers, whatever they were doing."

DC80s: "It seemed like the other writers were trying to stick to your continuity. In Action Comics Weekly, published during the same time you were writing Green Arrow, a solo Dinah Lance story was released in serial installments (she's got still got her short black hairdo) and then there's another Action Comics Weekly storyline following that in which she's donning her blonde wig because she now feels confident enough in herself, and I'm realizing that they are basing all of that on the continuity that you've established in your Green Arrow series. Meanwhile, she wasn't really appearing in any other titles - she even checked in to the Justice League International to say 'hey, I know I took a hiatus, but I'm not coming back to the team'... so it would seem that everyone was trying to work with your version of Black Canary. Eventually, a Black Canary mini-series was published in 1991 - where she finally says to Ollie 'YOU find a way to pay our bills while I take a trip in the mountains for a while'....

Grell: "That was not me who wrote that Black Canary mini-series. I'm pretty sure that was my ex-wife, though. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that was Sharon who wrote that." [Mike is half right. Sharon Wright wrote the Action Comics Weekly Black Canary stories. Sarah Byam wrote the mini. -J]

DC80s: "Nevetheless, the Black Canary: New Wings mini-series stayed somewhat true to the direction it appeared you were going with the character. Did you have long-term plans for the character evolution of Black Canary? There's this pivotal scene in your Green Arrow series in which the reverse of what happens to Dinah in the Longbow Hunters happens to Ollie - he gets captured and tortured, and Dinah gets "rambo-ed up" to go and rescue him...""

Grell: "Oh yeah! I remember that one..."

"No. My plan was to ultimately bring her and Ollie back together, only after Ollie had a chance to go off and be crazy and explore his relationship with Shado."

DC80s: "Huh. Interesting. By the way, those Warlord action figures that came out around the time of those Masters of the Universe toys..."

Grell: "They were actually He-Man figures with Warlord heads stuck on 'em."

DC80s: "Did you have any input into that?" [Thanks to Mark Belkin for this question]

Grell: "No. I had no idea they were even doing them until a box dropped through the mail slot one day with some toys."

DC80s: "Was there a possibility of a Warlord Saturday morning cartoon in the works? Maybe to compete with He-Man and the Masters of The Universe cartoon?"

Grell: "Nope. Not that I know of. the only reason we made the figures was because somebody came to us and was looking for something to license."

The interview concludes with Mike and I chatting about some of the more famous DC characters he'd created over the years. We'll save that one for a 'rainy' day.


Articles/interviews that really helped this interview:

• Warlord Worlds - a really fantastic Mike Grell fan site that was extremely helpful for research
• Panel Borders: Mike Grell, Freelance
• Behind The Panels One-Shot – The Mike Grell Interview
• ON THE FIVE: Interviewing Mike Grell
• Mike Grell On Jon Sable, Green Arrow , The Warlord, and Beyond
• Jon Sable's creator on his days of independence
• An Interview with Mike Grell, by Randy "Moonstonelover" Burtis

As previously mentioned, the Superhero Satellite blog wrote a really great article on the Warlord toys.

Mike Grell has his own website at www.mikegrell.com

------

Justin

The Mike Grell interview: Jon Sable Freelance as the precursor for the 1988 Green Arrow ongoing series

This is actually one half of a REALLY LONG interview I conducted with Mike Grell on Friday, May 13 2016 at the Ottawa Comiccon.  I was a little nervous when interviewing Mike, so my questions were all over the place and didn't follow any real logical flow. For your reading convenience, I separated the interview transcription into two parts. The second part will deal exclusively with his work on DC comics characters. This interview was actually recorded, but the quality of the audio is a little raw, so I won't be posting it for all to listen to - but I assure you, it exists.

This webzine is very much DC-centric, and this may be my only REAL chance to gush about how great Grell's John Sable Freelance is (and possibly my only chance ever to interview Mike Grell in person), so please bear that in mind as you read through the rather long-winded interview questions.

To summarize, Jon Sable Freelance is one of those indie book (published by First Comics from 1983 to 1988) that nobody seems to have read, but all unanimously agree to being one of the 'better' indie titles of the 1980s. A quick search on the 'net doesn't really delve much about this series, so this is DC in the 80s' chance to give this series it's due. Not just as a really well-illustrated and well-written series, but also as the forerunner to Grell's 1987 Longbow Hunters limited series and then his 1988 Green Arrow ongoing series (both published by DC comics in the late 1980s).

DCinthe80s: "To start: a little bit of history on you. You enlisted in the Air Force in 1967 and were discharged in 1971. You were in Saigon in 1971 - for about a year, correct?"

Mike Grell: "Yes."

DC80s: "So you weren't in the Vietnam War per se, you were working in the Air Force and Military Intelligence?" [the US extraction from Saigon (aka: end of Vietnam) was in 1975]

Grell: "Yes, I was. But the war was going on all around me, so I wasn't a combat soldier by any means, but I was in the war. I was involved. In fact, I was almost as involved as you can get without being in the jungle."


DC80s: "You grew up in Wisconsin, so you know a lot about hunting. Actually, I read that was one of your passions - wilderness, hunting..."


Grell: "Yes, yes it is."


DC80s: "You also know a lot about weaponry - I remember, while reading Jon Sable Freelance, you going into a lot of detail about the actual weapons used in the stories. I remember reading fan mail for the book praising your attention to detail on illustrating/describing a particular combat knife or gauge/caliber of a specific weapon. You have a really advanced knowledge of this stuff."

Grell: "Well I learned to shoot when I was 4 years old. I lived in Northern Wisconsin where the area was so depressed that if your father didn't hunt, your family didn't eat meat. Hunting came naturally to me just as a way of life. It taught me respect for the game animals, it taught me a love of the wild, and I've been at it since I was just a kid."


DC80s: "I sense a lot of that is reflected in your work: Jon Sable has a history of being a big game hunter in Africa, there's the whole hunter/prey motif in the series, and in Green Arrow - in your revamped origin - Green Arrow learns how to use a bow for survival while being stranded on a deserted island. Originally, as per his pre-Crisis origin, Green Arrow was a young boy when he was taught how to shoot."

Grell: "Yeah, it's a question of staying alive. I had a line I wrote in a story where someone asks him "what's the toughest shot he ever made?" and he replied "it was a lizard at ten feet" and they asked "was it poisonous?" and he replied "No. Tasty". Because it was the shot that he had to make in order to feed himself."


DC80s: "On the topic of Oliver Queen... by the way, do you still like the name 'Green Arrow'? I remember hearing you weren't a fan of the name 'Green Arrow'."

Grell: "The name is stupid, but the character - the concept of Green Arrow - well, Green Arrow has always been one of my favorite comic book heroes. Right from the time I was a little kid. I learned how to shoot a bow when I was six or seven years old and we used to play 'Robin Hood' all of the time. The idea of a character who doesn't have super powers, but he has superior skill that anybody can learn, just really appealed to me."

DC80s:"That's like the 'everyman' idea. Jon Sable is the 'everyman' because anybody with enough training could BE Jon Sable. Warlord/Travis Morgan was an 'everyman', he didn't have any special powers, he was an Air Force pilot who crashed in Skartaris..."

Grell: "Right. He was just an ordinary guy with a big sword and a .44 Magnum... but he had the only .44 Magnum is Skartaris, so it gave him a slight edge - y'know?"

DC80s: "Starslayer was another character you created. He was a Celtic warrior who gets that cybernetic eye implant as soon as he gets picked up by that ship - but for the most part, it is feasible that a normal human being could be skilled and honed enough that he could be on par with Starslayer. I'm finding that this another major theme in your 80s work - the main character as the 'everyman'. Even Blackhawk, the feature you wrote for 1988's Action Comic Weekly, is just a 'normal' pilot..."

Grell: "It's the circumstances that cause ordinary, normal people to rise above their everyday lives that really makes them heroic - people just going about their lives and something happens to change them. And it's that change that's important - it's what makes them who they are. It what makes them interesting." 

DC80s: "Something else I've noticed in your books is the concept of 'aging'. For example, Ollie is going through a mid-life crisis in Longbow Hunters, he's saying "well, I'm 40-something, do you want to have kids?" and Dinah says "Well, no. I don't want to bring kids into this world.""

Grell: "He wants to have kids because he's feeling that biological clock ticking, and she doesn't want anything to do with it because of what THEY do. She tells him that she'd love to make babies with him, but she doesn't want to make orphans. She's not ready to hang up her costume and give up the action. She still enjoys what she is and what she does."

"The reason why I made it a point to age my characters was that early on [in the 70s] I had a discussion with Julius Schwartz over a line in a Green Arrow story in which Ollie says "something something whatever I'm not even 30 yet" and I said "that's impossible" and he said "no no no, none of our characters are over thirty because our readers can't relate to anybody over thirty. They think that over thirty is 'over the hill' " and I said "that's totally ridiculous. How long would you say Green Arrow and Speedy have been together? Could you believe that the state had awarded Green Arrow custody of Speedy? What about Batman and Robin? Are you going to tell me that the state was going to award custody of a 15 year old boy to 29 year-old male bachelor? Really?" and so when I had the opportunity to create the Warlord and then Jon Sable, I made it a point to make those characters not just over 30, but over 40."

"I took a certain amount of pride in making them just a little older than I was at the time because I was against the pervasive ageism that is so prevalent in the comic industry. And it still is. There are so many unemployed artists who just happen to pass that 45 year old mark that you just can't believe it. It happens moreso in the comics industry...  probably moreso than any other industry. Artists who are still vital and viable - guys who can draw rings around a lot of the younger crop - are out of work because they're in their forties. Or, God forbid, in their fifties. Or, in my case, in their sixties."

DC80s: "Did you ever go to Africa?"

Grell: "Yes. I've been there twice on safari."

DC80s: "Was that before or after you wrote Jon Sable?"

Grell: "More or less during. I went first in 1984 and back again in 1989."

DC80s: "And you jousted at some point?"

Grell: "Yes. I rode with a group called the Seattle Knights for almost 10 years. I've jousted, did horse-back archery, sword fighting, and all that other stuff. I used to brag that I've never fell off a horse in my life. Then when I turned 45, I bought a horse. That came to an end in a hurry - three years later I was falling off professionally doing it 3 or 4 times a day. I've never been hurt falling off a horse on purpose. I've gotten busted-up on accident a couple of times.

DC80s: "When you were shopping around your Savage Empire comic strip in the early 1970s, you had another hard-boiled detective strip called Iron Mike... is that who Jon Sable is partly based on? You've listed Mickey Spillane and Edward Burroughs as some of your early influences..."

Grell: "The Mickey Spillane influence really showed in Iron Mike. There were a couple of stories I did in Jon Sable that I lifted straight out of Iron Mike - plots I had written out and wanted to follow through with."

DC80s: "I remember reading somewhere that Jon Sable was your favorite character. He was your 'pet project' and a lot of the allure came from the fact that you were able to tell the stories you wanted to tell. I've got say, I've re-read most of the entire Jon Sable Freelance TPB reprint set (available from IDW) for the first time a few months and still really enjoy it. It really holds up 30+ years later. I don't know if it's my age or etc, but lately I've been taking an interest in Cold War espionage drama, and this book was right up my alley. The majority of the stories are framed like whodunit mysteries..."

Grell: "That's what I liked most about the Jon Sable book - I could do any kind of story I wanted. It was securely anchored to the real world and I could often draw my stories from news headlines."

DC80s: "There's a few things here that you actually predict in advance. Sable dealt with a lot of contemporary stuff (at the time of publication), when you're reading it you can easily place when it happened ("okay, this story is about the 80-something Olympics. Okay, here's Jon Sable meeting with Reagan. Here's some Russians trying to escape the soviet by getting smuggled into the U.S.") and then there's the whole Iran/Contra thing..."

Grell: "Longbow Hunters! I got a call from a radio station in NYC asking me if I'd go on air and speak live about the story connection. The reporter asked me how I was able to beat the Iran/Contra story, in print, by 6 months. I told them that, quite frankly, all I did was read the papers, looked at what was going on in the world and plugged in the various players and asked myself "what would be stupidest thing the CIA could do if they were absolutely certain they would never get caught?" and that's what I wrote about."

Reagan makes a guest appearance in Jon Sable Freelance #1

DC80s: "You're one of the pioneers of championing for creator-owned work. You were the first to join up with Pacific Comics in the 80s (Jack Kirby was the second). For First Comics, you were the second to sign up (Joe Staton was the first). Jon Sable was one of the first 3 books published by First Comics. There was WARP, E-Man, Jon Sable Freelance and then Starslayer came in not too long after that [1983]. What was that like? You were taking a big gamble and venturing into new territory (i.e. creator-owned). I know that First Comics was paying a really good page rate, but there was a risk - you were venturing and taking a gamble. You were also making a statement about 'creator-owned'. It wasn't fair that you were creating popular characters for a bigger comic book company and couldn't retain control of them." 

Grell: "Exactly. I was always a big fan of newspaper comic strips. One of the reasons I wanted to get into newspaper strips so badly is because creators owned their own material. I didn't see any reason why that SHOULDN'T be the case in comic books as well. When the opportunity to create and own my own feature arose with Pacific Comics, I jumped on it. They unfortunately did NOT live up to their pledge and promise of even regular payments, there were so many bounced cheques back in the day that I had to look elsewhere. But here came First Comics and they were making good on their promises that Pacific was unable to fulfill. And it just made a huge difference. They were offering royalties. If it hadn't been for companies like First Comics, I don't think Marvel or DC would be paying royalties today. There's no possible way."

DC80s: "First Comics needed you just as badly as you needed them, as First needed some big-name comic talent to jump on board with them to attract new readers. It was a win-win situation, really. The appeal of First Comics was that you were reading some big-name talent hence drawing you into their line of comic books."

"When you started with Jon Sable Freelance, it wasn't a code-approved book obviously, so it gave you more leeway. Frank Miller's Daredevil run for Marvel - I wouldn't say he coined 'grim and gritty' - but he had the street-level stories... and then there was kind of a lull because he left Daredevil in the early 80s, and that's when Jon Sable appeared on the newsstands. But since you weren't operating under the Comics Code Authority, you were able to be more graphic than Miller was able to...

Grell:"You know.. I'm not sure that that's accurate. I think that Sable was ahead of Miller's Daredevil." 

[Miller's Daredevil run ran from 1979 - 1983, and then again in 1985 - 1986. I was referring to Miller's first run when he introduced Elektra. So, Mike's half-right here. Still - not bad for a guy who didn't have wikipedia in front of him.]

DC80s: "What's interesting about the character of Jon Sable is that he's a very cool, laid-back guy, but then, next thing you know he's straight up murdering people on panel. (Granted, they are typically villains, assassins, muggers or enemy soldiers). But the point is, it's pretty graphic and it's on-panel. The Jon Sable has a major underlying theme of 'urban crime' - how dangerous the streets are. There's lots of implied sex in that book."

Grell: "I explored a lot of those themes in Jon Sable, but also in Green Arrow Longbow Hunters. I was taken to task in print by the New York Times and Times magazine - in the same week they ran articles mentioning Green Arrow. Unfortunately they never mentioned my name. They called Green Arrow, and I remember the quote word-for-word, 'borderline pornography pandering to the prurient interests of today's youth'. oh, it was great. it was great. I just regret that they didn't mention my name."

"At the same time, they referred to Mindy Newell (she was writing Catwoman at the time) and Mindy's name they used. She got a phone call from her father, who was a heavy-hitter stock broker with big offices on Wall Street, saying "Mindy, I'd like you to come down to the office for lunch today" and she was thinking "Oh my God, what am I gonna face now?". So she walks in, as she steps off the elevator in the main lobby of her father's firm she sees the page from the New York Times blown-up wall-sized with her name circled about 25 times in yellow highlighter. She got a standing ovation from the office staff, and a big bouquet of roses from her father. He said "Honey, I've been on Wall Street for 35 years and I've never gotten my name in the Times."

DC80s: "You also did a Jon Sable story in Green Arrow where someone named Jake Moses show up [Green Arrow v2 #15 - 16, 1989], and..."

Grell: "Yes!" [Grell's face lights up]

DC80s: "...and Green Arrow ends up having a conversation with him. Was there a reason for that? Were you trying to demonstrate something? Like, 'for all you critics comparing my Jon Sable character to Green Arrow, here's the difference...'. Jacob Moses was driven over the edge. He was nothing like the smooth, handsome man-of-the-world Jon Sable - he was a haggard, Irish mercenary. Was there a story there? Or was this just a fun way to slip Jon Sable into a DC book?"

Grell: "Yeah, there was. On the one hand it was a continuation of a Sable-type of character, and on the other hand it was my way of putting that character to rest. It would've more or less been a logical ending for a guy who lived his life like Sable did. But in reality, it was a little bit of a back-hand slap at First Comics because at the time that I left the book - well, the reason that I did so was because I knew that without me on the title it would eventually fade and die. First Comics had a 10 year publishing license for 3 years after they last published the book. My leaving the book was a way to hasten that time period instead of having to wait until that 10 year period was over, I knew that after I left the book they'd only be able to keep it going for a short period of time. And then I would get the rights back a few years after they ceased publication."

DC: "Was there 'bad blood' between you and First Comics?"

Grell: "There was at the time. It was a sheer question of economics: I wasn't being paid what I was owed when I was supposed to get my payments. The timing was perfect. Mike Gold had transitioned to DC comics and he phoned me up one day and said "I'm editing over here at DC, is there any character here that you like well enough to 'bury the hatchet' and come back to work?". I said "Batman". I had just talked to Frank Miller, maybe a week before, and he told me about the plot of his Dark Knight Returns book, and I told Mike "Once Frank's done with Batman, you can put a period at the end of the Batman sentence for the next 20 years." Of course, I'm off by 7 or 8 years now, and counting. Gold was the one who said "Green Arrow". Green Arrow has always been one of my favorite characters. "Now think about this," he said "...Green Arrow as an URBAN HUNTER". That's was it. That was the whole inspiration for the Longbow Hunters, and the angle on the character for the ongoing series that followed."

DC80s: "Was that a difficult idea to sell to DC? I remember Green Arrow as being a somewhat 'jovial' character - that guy with the trick arrows (boxing glove on the tip of the arrow) - and you were going to reinvent him as a vigilante with pointed arrows that pierce and potentially kill. How did DC handle that proposal on the character?"

Grell: "It turned out to be a really easy sell." 

DC80s: "I'm imagining it had to do with your success with Jon Sable Freelance. They saw how popular and well-written that was. Hence my point that Jon Sable Freelance was the precursor to your Longbow Hunters and, shortly thereafter, your 1988 Green Arrow ongoing series. A lot of elements from Jon Sable Freelance are apparent in Green Arrow. In both of them, your main characters get hurt. Jon Sable, he's got permanent scars across his chest - there's some continuity there because the scars are the result of one of his first adventures. In Green Arrow, Ollie's always coming back as bloody as hell and Dinah has to bandage him up. It's grounded in realism. He's not going out beating up muggers all night and coming back home unscathed. These guys are getting hurt. Same thing with Dinah - she gets into a major fight and for several issues later she's still got the exact same bruises. That's realistic. That's the allure - it goes back to that 'everyman' thing. You feel that you could realistically be this person. You can relate to it."

Grell: "Yeah, I think that's part of the job of a writer is to be close enough to reality - even in a fantasy - that your character isn't perceived as just a violent S.O.B. who has no repercussions in his life. Yes, Oliver Queen shot a lot of people with bows and arrows, but he also wound up in court. And it took a toll on him. Everything that he did took a toll. He was essentially a victim of PTSD."

DC80s: "...also another common theme in your work: Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Jon Sable is dealing with the death of his family."

Grell: "Violence doesn't only affect the person that it happens to. sometimes it affects the person who perpetrates it"

DC80s: "That appears to be an important theme in your work which keeps it based in realism. Is Jon Sable based on Ian Flemming? His alter ego is B.B. Flemm... "

Grell: "No. The inspiration for Sable was a character who would be the EXACT OPPOSITE of Batman. He doesn't work for the greater good, he works for money - you got to pay him, he's a mercenary. He doesn't have a secret identity. The mask is only symbolic apart from the fact that it scares the hell out of the bad guys. He's not trying to disguise who he is - everybody know he's mister blood and guts. His deep dark secret is that he's a closet "nice guy" who writes children's books about a group of leprechauns living in a fairy mound in central park. The only time he wears any kind of disguise is when he has to go out into public and appear as the children's author B.B. Flemm. Which, when it's written out, looks fine. But when you say it, it's that stuff you hock out of your throat when you have a bad cold."

DC80s: "Physically, was the appearance of Jon Sable based on someone you knew? An actor, perhaps? Same question for Maggie the Cat... [a Jon Sable character that quickly became a fan favorite and received her own spin-off book]"

Maggie the Cat

Grell:"Sable was originally based on James Brolin - Josh Brolin's dad. Maggie the Cat was based in part on Grace Kelly. Grace Kelly did a movie with Cary Grant called To Catch A Thief [1955] and she's also partly based (facially) on a model/actress named Lauren Hutton."

James Brolin

Grace Kelly

Lauren Hutton

DC80s: "All the women in Jon Sable Freelance are beautiful..."

Grell: "Beautiful are more interesting than ugly ones. I'm just sayin' "

DC80s: "...especially when you are writing cold war mystery/espionage thrillers..."
    
Grell: "More interesting to me, anyways"

DC80s: "It's also interesting that Jon Sable, a guy in his 40s, his primary love interest is Myke - the really tall twenty-something aspiring illustrator..."

Grell: "Yeah, well I was married to a twenty-something girl at the time"

DC80s: "art imitates life"

Grell: "...and just like in Jon Sable, she was taller than me."

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Again, I'm going to make a strong recommendation that you pick up and read First Comics' Jon Sable Freelance ongoing series from 1983 (written and illustrated by Mike Grell). I didn't read the entire series, just the first six trade paperbacks published, so I really can't comment on anything after that - but I can confidently tell you that the first 33 issues are better than 80% of what's currently out there on the comic book market. The series is beautifully illustrated by Grell and holds up really well as far as plotting and pacing go - some of it's pretty intense and will even surprise you. If you're the 'adventurous' type, you can go hunting through back-issue bins (issues can vary wildly in price, but for the most part you should be able to get them pretty cheap) or you can just bite the bullet (like I did) and pick up the trades from IDW.

Just lovin' those two-page Grell-illustrated splash pages

I can hardly express how grateful I am that Mike Grell gave me his time and sat down and talked with me. You can check out more of Mike Grell on his website: http://mikegrell.com.

Go to part two of this interview.