Talking comics with indie comix creator and actor Tony Wolf

Tony Wolf first came to our attention via twitter -- or rather -- a few panels from Tony's brilliant autobiographal comic detailing his experiences with 1989's Batmania caught our attention on twitter:

Written and illustrated by Tony Wolf.

After a bit of internet sleuthing (hey, we wanted to see more) we discovered that: Tony grew up collecting and reading 80s comics, Tony has written and illustrated a few indie comics for various publications, and Tony is currently working on a new 'secret' project. He's also an accomplished actor (NBC's The Blacklist: Redemption) now living in Hoboken, NJ. (He spent 22 years in the same apartment in Brooklyn and just recently moved to Hoboken.)

We reached out to him and, thankfully, he agreed to an interview. 

There were a few ways we could approach this interview -- interview him as Tony the Actor? Interview him as Tony the Creator? Interview him as Tony the Comics Fan? Ultimately, we opted for the latter. (I mean, we ARE a site about DC comics from the eighties, and if the shoe fits...)

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Justin: Emma Vince of Extra.ie gave a really fantastic interview about your transition from being a comic book illustrator to becoming an actor and then coming back to being a comic book illustrator again. You also give some great advice to aspiring comic book creators. What I really find inspiring about your story is that you were forty-something the first time one of your indie comics appeared in The New York Times (which is pretty much one of the highest achievements an indie comics creator could strive for) -- I think this is particularly encouraging because it reaffirms that new doors can open in the comic biz even after your mid-thirties (I realize it's a bit different since you had the skills growing up and never stopped working on them) -- but it shows that there's no 'plateau age' that prevents you from breaking new grounds.

Tony: Yeah, it's a crazy world out there ... the world of the arts! I always tell people that it's a world where anything goes, to a large degree. I drew and wrote my own comics for fun as a kid and as a teen, and back then I thought I'd become a professional comic book artist. Then I got more & more into acting, and found that I preferred acting since it was collaborative and social, whereas drawing means you sitting alone in a room for 8 hours a day, working at a desk. I needed that social component. But during a quiet year when there wasn't much going on with my acting career, I said to myself, "Well, I have a lot of free time (and I was not in a relationship at the time), so maybe now I can give myself the project of making my own comics and giving that a real go."

Three years of doing autobio comics (inspired by those of Harvey Pekar) for fun and for free, as passion projects and creative experiment, led to me getting some press for my comics, which then led to friendships which later led to a potential for my comics to be carried by the New York Times -- which I was extremely thankful for. But I also knew that there was just as much chance that the creative experiments and passion projects could not have gone anywhere substantive at all. The arts -- acting, comics, writing, a LOT of the arts --  are a world where you make things, you do projects you are passionate about, you have a lot of ambition and drive and hustle and networking, and you put your creations out there. You put yourself 'out there' continually, time and time again -- and you hope that the seeds you plant eventually bear some fruit that *might* lead to some success. Just like the scene in True Romance where Patricia Arquette gets relentlessly beat up by James Gandolfini and he gives her the compliment: "You got a lot of heart, kid." The arts will often require that kind of dogged determination from us -- that kind of relentless persistence, even in the face of seemingly overwhelming odds.

Tony's second published indie comic as it appears in a Feb 2018 edition of the New York Times.
Photo source: Tony Wolf

Tony: I have seen comics creators, actors, and artists go from obscure / producing very small indie stuff, to becoming very, VERY successful, over the course of about 6 years. You never know. You really never know. I have seen people rise to great heights and achieve great things because they just NEVER STOPPED making work and putting themselves out there, as creatives. That is very inspiring. When you see peers and friends and acquaintances "make it," that also reminds you that YOU can make it too. It is do-able. It is possible. It is not some unrealistic fantasy. It can actually happen if you put the consistent blood, sweat, and tears in. This usually means YEARS of effort -- during which no apparent results may be evident; certainly not any big results. But things add up over time.... and you never know who is watching & who might be keeping an eye on your work and development, especially in this social media age. That, to me, is inspiring.


Justin: We were browsing through your Instagram trying to find those aforementioned 1989 Batmania panels, and we found a lot of other neat DC sketches and illustrations instead. Based on the things we saw, I'm going to assume that Alan Moore's run on Swamp Thing was particularly important to your formative years of comic reading? Same with Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns? Care to talk about what that was like -- growing up and seeing these for the first time on newsstands?

Tony: Yeah, I was an 80s kid .... the 80s were a HUGE era for comics. Lots of dynamic, fresh new voices coming in. I started buying Alan Moore's Swamp Thing around issue 46 (since the earlier issues somehow came off as a bit scary or overly dark / ponderous to my junior high school brain -- like I wasn't quite ready for them yet). But I'd heard so often from comics journalists (reading The Comics Journal, Amazing Heroes, and the weekly newsprint paper The Comics Buyers Guide) that Alan Moore was doing something incredible in the pages of Swamp Thing, so I gave it a try. This was just a few issues before Swamp Thing #50 where Moore makes this deep philosophical point about anger and Evil with a capital E .... plus, it had Batman and The Phantom Stranger guest-starring! I was fascinated. The art in Swamp Thing was also unlike anything I'd ever seen before. So then I went back and started buying the back issues, and made sure I eventually acquired everything back to and including Alan Moore's first issue on the title.

Tony Wolf sketches inspired by Alan Moore's Swamp Thing.

Tony: I was buying comics on a regular basis -- every week -- a few years before Frank Miller debuted the first issue of The Dark Knight Returns. It's hard to describe the feeling of what it felt like to buy that as a fresh new product on the stands -- it was something groundbreaking, fascinating, mind-blowing. Visually and in terms of the writing. It packed a visceral impact that we had rarely seen or felt in comics. I also remember the gut-punch of the ending of the first issue of Frank Miller & David Mazzucchelli's Daredevil: Born Again story. I remember telling my friends: "So the Kingpin ACTUALLY FINDS OUT Daredevil's secret identity, and frames him, empties his bank accounts, and then BLOWS UP HIS APARTMENT BUILDING?!? And the end of the first issue where all this happens is Matt Murdock standing in the rubble and realizing it has to be the Kingpin that did this to him?!? "It was a nice piece of work, Kingpin... you shouldn't have SIGNED it." " We all completely lost our minds reading that issue for the first time! The sheer guts in doing a story like that. Also, the fact that Marvel even approved a story like that. This was a new level of take-no-prisoners kind of comics storytelling. And Mazzuccelli's art was just sublime, and got even better as that story arc went on. Both creators were in their prime and firing on all cylinders.

Funny enough: I was one of those fans who, when I first started reading & collecting comics, I thought DC was "square" (ex: stories weren't that good, heroes (other than Batman) were too powerful, etc). The Trial of the Flash was happening (Barry Allen) and it looked somber and too depressing. Superman books were lame other than Alan Moore's Last Superman Story. But Crisis On Infinite Earths had exactly the effect on me that DC wanted -- it was really interesting to me, very moving, and cleaned up DC continuity. I immediately started reading George Perez's Wonder Woman, John Byrne's Superman, and Frank Miller's Batman: Year One -- and of course, they were all phenomenal.

Lightray of the New Gods illustrated by Tony Wolf

Other 80s comics that blew my mind: Walt Simonson's Thor run.... Claremont and a host of artists on X-Men -- Paul Smith, Rick Leonardi, and then the newcomer John Romita Jr. (who I took a while to warm up to, at first). John Byrne writing and drawing both X-Men and Alpha Flight -- I was obsessed with Byrne's output for Marvel at the time. Then Byrne went to DC and did Legends and then took over the Superman titles -- those were fantastic! Plus the burst of indie titles like Nexus, Mage, Concrete .... and I got the first issue (3rd printing, although it was still brand-new at the time) of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I loved that it was such a loving (and detailed) parody of the Frank Miller martial arts style of comics storytelling. So much love went into TMNT. Then you could watch as the creators, Eastman & Laird, realized they had to continue the story of these characters, and they start to experiment and branch out of the ninja stuff to wild wacky stuff like ... Fugitoid!! And alien monsters. haha.

A few DKR-influenced pieces illustrated by Tony Wolf. DKR Grover colored by SirGryphon.

Justin: So, some of the comics that you've published so far are kind of an auto-biographical account of your experiences growing up with comics. You've got an 8-page comic about your memories of the whole 'Call this number to vote if Jason Todd lives or dies' thing, a memoir about your experiences with 1989 Batmania, and a new upcoming project recounting your experiences with collecting and reading comics in the eighties and nineties. I think a lot of us can relate, because comicdom was something we grew up reading and being excited for during the 80s -- while many of our other teen-aged peers may not have shared our interest. It's a bit like "wow, someone else out there who is just like me". You even went the extra step and participated -- especially going so far as to vote on the life or death of a character. What were the other 'big' moments of your comic-loving life?

Panels from "1-800-Dead-Robin". Illustrated by Tony Wolf, colored by Sirgryphon.

Tony: Ah, interesting question. Watching comics come out in the 80s that continually redefined what "comics" could be was just endlessly exciting. You thought you'd seen it all ... and then, here comes this wonderful oddball book called Nexus. THEN you thought you'd seen it all, and here comes the insane Monty Python-style comedy of ... Ambush Bug! Then you see crazy stuff like Boris The Bear from the then-brand new company Dark Horse .... which was a loving parody of all the indie black & white comics coming out back then, skewering and satirizing trends at the time.

I picked up issues 1 and 2 of Matt Wagner's Mage at a Long Island comic book convention. I think the two issues were actually sitting on a 'take these comics for free' table -- that's how NEW they were; they were so small and SO "indie" that they had to give them away for free, as samplers, because no one really knew or cared about Comico Comics (the then-tiny publisher) or who this Matt Wagner guy was. Mage made a HUGE impression on me. Another instance of incredibly bold, creative, innovative, and very personal storytelling, and presented in such a unique way. It grabbed me immediately, and I wrote in to the letters page, and got a signed postcard from Matt Wagner in the early 80s, where he drew Kevin Matchstick on it. I saved it, of course... I still have that postcard.

In the early / mid 80s, when the first Mage series started up from Comico Comics, Matt Wagner ran a really fun letters page. Once it had become clear that the lead character, Kevin Matchstick, was the reincarnation of some iconic hero, I wrote a letter in (an actual handwritten letter, of course! this was the 80s!) joking that maybe Kevin was the reincarnated Alice in Wonderland, since a few of the arcane fantasy and literary references Mirth made sounded (to me) vaguely like Wonderland characters.

Mage postcard from Matt Wagner. Posted with Tony Wolf's permission.

I also wrote a fan letter to Eastman & Laird right after Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1 came out - - and they wrote me a HAND-WRITTEN letter back! They wrote to me right around the time when TMNT #2 had just been published and #3 was on the way to comics stores. I wrote to them when the comic had just debuted, and I'm sure they were just thrilled that anyone at all was writing to them. I think I lost that letter, and I'm pissed about not having it anymore!! haha.  They drew a sketch of Raphael for me and enclosed it with the letter. I may still be able to find it among old papers; but I think I may have to admit that it's lost at this point. Still, getting a personal handwritten letter from them was so cool -- both then and now. Even if I can't freakin' find it anymore in my possessions! haha.

Justin: I was there and living it, so you don't need to explain it to me -- but to everyone who was too young and totally missed out on 89 Batmania and the 'revival of Batman' to a mainstream audience -- what was that like? what was the long-lasting impact of that?

Tony Wolf as 'Jack Nicholson' Joker for Halloween. Circa 1994.

Tony: The announcement of the Batman movie directed by Tim Burton was really, really incredible --  when we started to see the preview photos coming out in magazine articles, we were all so thankful and stunned: it looked like they were REALLY doing a dramatic, dark version of Batman in live-action, FINALLY! It seemed like Burton and his chosen Batman, Michael Keaton, were pretty serious about the tone.

I remember when the very first trailer came out for the first Burton / Keaton Batman movie. We had a VCR, and I found out when the trailer would be airing (on something like Entertainment Tonight) and I taped it. I watched that trailer obsessively, repeatedly.... using slow-motion to see every scene in detail. I remember being struck by the edit / transition of Keaton saying (as Bruce): "Alfred... let's go shopping." and then it cuts to the wild new design of the Batmobile roaring through the streets. Also, I recall watching that trailer's introduction of Nicholson as the Joker many times... it just showed Nicholson emerging from the shadows with those famous lines, "Jack? Jack ... is DEAD, my friend. You can call me ... Joker!" I loved it. My anticipation for the movie was immense.

Illustrated by Tony Wolf

Tony: I noticed that the movie was opening on June 23, 1989 -- which was a Friday. My graduation ceremony from high school was that exact same date. So I wrote & drew a short comic for my high school newspaper, about me tearing off my graduation robe and running straight from graduation to the movie theater in my home town of Rockville Centre, NY (on Long Island) to see the Batman movie. I made up invitations (as if it was a wedding invitation or something; my high school version of what a fancy invitation might look like) and invited a bunch of friends to go see the movie with me on opening night. Everyone agreed and accepted -- we would all see it on Friday night, together! All my nerdy friends.

The night before the opening of the movie, Thursday night, my friend Jason and I are walking around the small town ... and we pass by the movie theater. We see a sign that is advertising a special EARLY PREVIEW SCREENING of Batman -- this was almost unheard of back then! There was no internet to tell you about an advance screening. We had just stumbled onto it by walking past the theater. It didn't look mobbed, either... so I was severely tempted to just go in and watch it right then. (We walked past about an hour before this special advance screening was about to start.) Jason, ever the level-headed one, said: "Tony, you invited everyone to a big thing tomorrow night where we'll all see the movie *together* for the first time. People might be offended that you saw it a night before without telling anyone. They think we're all going to experience it for the first time together. Maybe you should wait." I saw his point -- but my impatience and sometimes-impulsive nature was too intense. I thought it over and I was like, "I've waited years for this kind of movie. Let's just go in and see it. I'll see it again with everyone tomorrow. I just have to see it now, since we have the opportunity to see it." I couldn't wait. Jason said: "Well, it's your call. I'll go in with you, since I want to see it too - but I want it clear that this was your decision, to go in and see it the night before we're seeing it with everyone. You're the impatient one here; this is on your head." haha. It was like "Let it be known through the ages that it was your impatience and inability to wait; not mine." And so we went in.

Tony Wolf illustration of classic Batman costume. Circa 1994.

Tony: I loved the movie; Jason was pretty entertained by it too.... but I was the far-more-comics-obsessed person, out of the two of us, so I went on a lot about how much I loved it. So the next night, we see it with the group, and as we walked into the official opening night showing, I fessed up and admitted that I had made the decision to see it the previous night. My friend Mark was like "What? You said you'd wait for us! Noooo!!" -- exactly what Jason had predicted the reaction would be. I was like "I'm happy to see it again; it's really good!" But my friends felt at least a little annoyed that I broke the 'code' by seeing it early and only telling them as we walked into the Graduation Day screening.

Years go by, and the same old friends -- Jason and Mark and I -- are going to see the opening night of the first Christopher Nolan / Christian Bale Batman movie, Batman Begins. We're talking and waiting on line at the Manhattan movie theater. Mark gets a gleam in his eye, looks at me, "You know what I love about Batman, as a character? It's about vengeance." We're looking at him, and I'm not sure where he's going with this. He said "It's about vengeance for a wrong that happened many years ago." I'm still not getting where he's going with this. Jason is just watching and sort of smiling. Mark then says: "Hey, remember how you saw the first Batman movie a night early, and how annoyed I was for years about that?" And I, sheepishly said, "Yeah." He says "Well, VENGEANCE is MINE!! Because I saw it last week at an advance screening! It took me 16 years, but I finally got you back!!" We all laughed - he was right. He got me good .... Vengeance was indeed his. A friend of his who I knew was in the entertainment industry, and had invited him to an early preview screening. "That was the longest grudge I ever held," Mark said. The circle was now complete.

Etrigan the Demon illustrated by Tony Wolf

Justin: I'm also seeing the influence of the Death of Superman in your instagram art. How did the Death of Superman impact you?

Tony: I totally loved the Superman stories of the 80s (post-Crisis), and once John Byrne left the books, I didn't follow them much. However, during college I picked up what was one of Dan Jurgens & Art Thibert's first issues of Adventures of Superman (where Hank Henshaw debuts), and I was hooked again. Over the next few years, I watched Dan Jurgens shape the Superman books --- along with Louise Simonson, Roger Stern, Butch Guide, Jon Bogdanove, Jerry Ordway, Marv Wolfman, and more talented creators -- into something truly special again.

illustrated by Tony Wolf, colored by SirGryphon

Tony: The Death of Superman storyline was handled so well -- I was buying every issue as they hit the stands. At first I was very leery about this whole "now there are 4 Supermen; which one - if any - is the real one?" storyline, but they handled it exceptionally. I always say that the actual death -- Doomsday showing up and bludgeoning Superman to death -- is actually the least interesting part, for me. The two months of comics *after* his death, where the writers got a chance to show how the death of The Man of Steel affected everyone in the entire world, and his supporting cast, were real magic. Quiet, reflective, truly sad books with not a lot of super-villainy or slugfests.

Cyborg Superman illustrated by Tony Wolf

Tony: I remember one of Roger Stern's issues was especially moving and very simple / poignant. The funeral of Superman being patterned after the funeral of JFK was genius. And young people like me saw the title of the story arc: "Funeral For A Friend" -- and may been inspired, as I was, to seek out the very cool Elton Song the arc was named after. :) It wasn't an easy thing to dangle the "Which of these 4 Supermen is our Clark?" storyline and pull it off / make it work, but they really did. And once the real Superman *did* come back, it felt like a truly satisfying ending. Satisfying endings are NOT easy to pull off, especially when you've built your story up so much.

Superman illustrated by Tony Wolf

Tony: Also, speaking as an artist, for a long time, it felt like the art team of Dan Jurgens penciling and Brett Breeding inking was an amazing art team comparable to John Byrne and Terry Austin. Just perfectly matched. It was amazing to see their work come in each month.

As Superman Red / Superman Blue, it was a silly story idea that DC and the team did their best to do a more "legitimate" version of. You've probably heard the jokes (all true) that the colorist used to say at each annual creators' summit meeting "Let's do Superman Red / Superman Blue!" and they would all laugh and say to him "Maybe next year." Then they eventually felt they should actually do it -- based on the absurd 1950s storyline. Starting off with the now-infamous Electric Blue Superman was a good move -- and I find myself still not sure whether I hate or love Electric Blue Supes. But one thing is for sure: they did their best to tell a strong story with that version of Superman, and one of my writing heroes, Grant Morrison, managed to make him work really feel in his JLA run.

Superman Blue by Tony Wolf

Tony: I remember thinking at the time, "I see that they're kind of writing Superman Red as the more impulsive one, and Superman Blue as the more logical / cool-headed one" (once he split into 2), but they didn't really take that far enough in the writing. Anyone remember the Millenium Giants storyline, which ended with Superman Red & Blue being fused back into one Superman? Not many people remember it or talk about it, because it was a mostly forgettable popcorn-movie storyline which had, as its sole focus, the goal of getting us back to Regular-Flavor- (Classic) Superman.


Justin: I saw a few LoSH commissions in your instagram. Every DC fan I've ever met either loves the LoSH or hates em. Where do you stand?

Andromeda and Triplicate Girl illustrations by Tony Wolf, colored by SirGryphon.

Tony: I do love The Legion of Super-Heroes .... I really dug the Legion comics of the mid-80s, especially the ones that introduced us to the art of Chris Sprouse, Jeff Moy, and the amazing Stuart Immonen! Steve Lightle also had some terrific art, as well as Greg LaRocque. John Byrne's Superman / Superboy Legion story when he first took over the Superman titles helped ease me into it, although I certainly knew who the Legion characters were. I also really enjoyed Mark Waid & Barry Kitson's Legion reboot in the 90s, until it ran out of steam.

Early Lightning Lad origin illustrated by Tony Wolf and colored by Tom Gryphon.

Tony: I was asked to do some Legion commission art by a friend a few years ago, and had a blast doing it. I even ended up doing a bonus free gift where I did an homage to the Curt Swan origin of Lightning Lad. And a few years before that, I did a drawing for the late Seth Kushner which was an homage to the first appearance of the Legion (the cover where they are evaluating Superboy, as to whether they let him into the Legion), for his autobio collection of stories about his dating life, called SCHMUCK. That was a lot of fun to do.

illustrated by Tony Wolf, colored by the late Seth Kushner

Tony: LONG LIVE THE LEGION! Also, as a kid, I read a lot of the 1970s DC digests reprinting a bunch of old 60s and 70s Legion stories, which were fun (and often bizarre). And it was fun when Geoff Johns wrote a Legion episode for the Smallville TV show a while back.

Justin: What kind of impact did Vertigo comics have on your formative comics reading years?

Tony: Vertigo was a big deal for me in the 80s; at first I was a little wary of it and didn't quite understand the concept. I remember seeing early Grant Morrison Invisibles covers by Brian Bolland and thinking "those are really well-drawn, but it seems like they're just trying to be so weird and avant-garde for the sake of being avant-garde." It was too much for my junior high school brain to comprehend at that point, haha. But I kept hearing how great The Invisibles was -- I just felt innately that I wasn't ready for it yet. The first Vertigo series that hooked me in was Neil Gaiman's Sandman -- I'd been hearing for months about how great this new Sandman series was, but again, the weird Dave McKean covers just seemed to bizarre to Young Tony. Eventually, DC was touting issue 8 of Sandman as a convenient jumping-on point for new readers, and I tried it out. It was indeed very good. It had a special insert section about Death of The Endless teaching you how to use a condom. haha. I was a pretty geeky / square kid, but at the same time I wasn't really in need of sex ed at that point. Still, I remember thinking "This Dave McKean guy (he drew the condom / sex ed insert) can really draw well! He doesn't just do weird photo collage covers!" haha. Once Sandman hooked me into that story tone and sensibility, I then started looking into other fare that was either literally Vertigo or DC Comics that were effectively Vertigo, like Alan Moore's Swamp Thing and Grant Morrison's Animal Man. Eventually they made Swamp Thing into a Vertigo title -- same thing with Doom Patrol, I believe.

Neil Gaiman illustrated by Tony Wolf.

Tony: I got into Animal Man by Grant Morrison and that was another HUGE gateway for me into another kind of comics storytelling. I then scooped up every single Grant Morrison Doom Patrol that existed -- this was when I was in college, and I loved it. It was crazy, but yet it worked. It was so experimental, and yet actually formed coherent, truly entertaining stories. Grant Morrison became my favorite comics writer, and I got to interview him at Midtown Comics in NYC for a podcast I co-hosted years ago, called The Action Room. Here's that video -- it was great to meet him.

I also remember being really impressed with the art of Duncan Fegredo, in early Vertigo titles, and I still follow his work. Ditto John Paul Leon.

Note Negative Spirit/Rebus on the drawing board.
Self portrait (à la Jack Kirby) illustrated by Tony Wolf, colored by George Folz

Justin: Did you or are you currently writing a comic about dealing with anxiety? How did comics help with coping with anxiety (if at all)?

Tony: Yes, I was asked a few years ago by some indie creators I admire & respect to do a short story comic for an all-autobio anthology called Sweaty Palms --  I have (as many creatives do) a history of some clinical depression and anxiety, and at first I was nervous or hesitant about doing a story about it. But I realized it was life giving me an opportunity to express myself and it was a good creative / writing challenge.... so I decided to take on the challenge. I figured a short 6-page story should be a good length. I went through a few drafts in terms of how to tell it, and the editors of Sweaty Palms were helpful in guiding me through it. I decided to try to tell it like 'the bullet points of the experience', like a Powerpoint presentation, but not nearly as boring as that, hopefully. haha. I'd certainly read a ton of auto-bio comics about depression and anxiety, and one of my goals was to not tread the same ground as many creators had done already. It was a good challenge and I feel happy with the result. The comic was also run online by Heidi MacDonald at The Beat.

illustrated by Tony Wolf

Tony: As cliché as it sounds, I figured if my comic can help one person feel a little less alone, it's worth it. I didn't get into the methods and means I used to get better in the comic, because that's a lot more personal and it would take another several pages to do that justice. (The short answer to that is: many years of therapy, and some medication to help me through the worst of it.) In the comic itself, I played a bit with the idea of using certain comic book moments as metaphor for what I was going through: Steve Ditko's Dr. Strange exploring the magical realms, Matt Murdock spending "Endless stolen hours at the bag" from the Miller / Mazzuccelli's Born Again Daredevil story, and Neal Adams' 70s Superman cover of Superman breaking through Kryptonite chains on his chest. And the final page of my story is a tribute of sorts to the iconic Norman Rockwell portrait of himself drawing, with the 'camera' at his back, as we see him at his drawing table. I drew the Greenpoint apartment I was living in at the time I did the story.

illustrated by Tony Wolf

Justin: What are you allowed to tell us about your new auto-bio indie comic on your memories of growing up with eighties and nineties comics?

Tony: This new comic is due to debut (hopefully) by November 2018. My buddy and frequent collaborator Tom Gryphon aka SirGryphon will be coloring it, and I'm so excited to work with him again. He colored my 1-800-DEAD-ROBIN comic about my voting to kill Jason Todd, and he's done cover colors for my 'Greenpoint of View' comics (and also colored my New York Times comic about squab earlier this year , as well as the 4-page comic history I did about The Secret Origin of Midtown Comics).

panels from Tony's upcoming 'secret' project, illustrated by Tony Wolf and colored by SirGryphon

Tony: This comic is set to be 16 pages, and I'm on page 11 right now. I'm keeping the contents of this story very secret, but we can say that it is in the tradition of 1-800-DEAD-ROBIN in that it's part autobio, part comics history, about iconic and historic moments in 80s comics, with some 90s stuff thrown in there as well. It's also told through the lens of me being a comics fan in junior high school and high school.

I've had this story in mind for years -- ever since I did "Dead Robin" -- and it's very personal / a crazy labor of love. I've got a topic to cover that I have never really seen written about much, outside of geeky blogs, and as with "Dead Robin," I am writing it like a documentary: geeks will hopefully appreciate it, but I am writing it in such a way that even if you don't give a crap about comics, you will find this interesting and educational. I like writing about how specific moments in pop culture are indicative of social change or somehow mark trends in society. Maybe I was a little too into how Adrian Veidt (in Watchmen) felt he could predict and analyze social trends by watching all those televisions at once. haha. The other goal with this comic is inform a wider audience about key moments and design elements in comics I feel are underappreciated and never discussed outside of our geeky world.

illustrated by Tony Wolf

Tony: One thing I have learned from my 5 years making comics in earnest attempting to be a pro: Do your weird passion project and then trust that it will find a home. Don't wait for a publisher, or a book deal, or for someone to buy your art -- make the art that you are passionate about, and trust that it will find a home. I did a weird, random comic about my favorite ice cream, and was lucky enough that -- as a result of my doing my autobio Harvey Pekar-esque comics for free, for fun, as a passion project and a creative experiment, for 2 1/2 years -- my comics up til that point had gotten enough press and ended up leading to relationships, connections, and geek friendships, that this oddball comic about my favorite ice cream dessert was published by The New York Times. Here it is -- free to read online: about the Italian ice cream dessert the tartufo.  (This piece was colored by Jeremy Nguyen, who I met when I was starting to do comics, and who is now a regular New Yorker cartoonist.)

I'm also working on another short story comic -- a 7-page history comic (with only a tiny element of auto-bio in it) about an underappreciated, unsung moment in New York City history, which also doesn't have a home yet, but which I spent months researching and which I think could find a home somewhere like The Atlantic or The New Yorker. I plan on having it water-colored by a terrific New Jersey / Hoboken painter named Morgan McCue.


Justin: Tony, I absolutely adore your work and your 'auto-bio indie comix' vibe really resonates with me. (I was always a Harvey Pekar fan, and fans reminiscing about comic book memories is my kryptonite.) I noticed some mock-up covers for a Tales from the Wolf collected edition. Is that happening? I'd totally buy into that...

illustrated by Tony Wolf, colored by SirGryphon

Tony: This is the cover for a planned eventual paperback collection of all my comics thus far. There is no publisher yet, and no kickstarter - - I did the cover because it's something I'd like to manifest / materialize, either through one of the indie publishers I've worked with, or a larger publisher. I trust that a collection of my work will happen in it's due time; in its right time, when the stars align. Tom Gryphon (aka SirGryphon) did an excellent job on the colors for this cover. I had the idea to do the homage to the famous Tales From The Crypt cover layouts, and had a blast drawing it.

Justin: Thanks so much for chatting with us, Tony.

Do you want to see more of Tony's work? Does he sound familiar to you? Maybe you recognized his name from a film? Or maybe you just want to find out when his next project is seeing publication? Find more of Tony Wolf at tonywolfactor.com.  

Superman and E.T. illustrated by Tony Wolf

All-Star Squadron: The First Year Review (But Not Really, More of an Excuse To Ask Questions)

So I have been reading through All-Star Squadron, starting from #1. In the 1980’s, I read about 30 issues, but the other 35 have been sitting there begging me to read them -- for a good 30 years. You know what I mean: you have stacks of comics, new ones, but you have a whole bunch you bought years ago that you want to get to,... but life happens.

It’s been a fun read so far: Roy Thomas spinning yarn about Pearl Harbour, the early days of World War II, FDR hanging out with Winston Churchill, while Atom and Hawkman pal around with the world leaders. The art started out with Rich Buckler, and moved into Adrian Gonzalez, but all of the issues feature the inking of Jerry Ordway, and his work just shines through. To me, Jerry Ordway is THE Golden Age of comics, and that’s just my truth.

panel from All-Star Squadron #3 (1981)

Roy Thomas decided to use lesser known heroes, to replace more known Justice Society of America members. Johnny Quick was a stand-in for the Flash, Liberty Belle was a stand-in for Wonder Woman. Those two made sense. Then he had Robotman be a stand-in for Green Lantern. Robotman was created by Jerry Siegel, who also created the Spectre and the Star-Spangled Kid. That’s kind of nuts, because all three of those still play a role in DC today. I think Robotman is a perfect stand-in for Superman, and Air Wave would have been a good stand-in for Green Lantern. Energy powers, and Air Waves' name in the 40s was Larry Jordan and in the 80’s he was retconned to be related to Hal Jordan. This leads me to my first question.

1. Why was Robotman used as a stand-in for Green Lantern? I wish I could ask Roy Thomas, but anyone who may have seen an interview with Roy about the topic, I would like more information.

panel from All-Star Squadron #1 (1981)

The first three issues of All-Star Squadron focus on time traveling Per Degaton and his team of villains that he picked out through different time periods. He brought my favorite, Solomon Grundy, to 1941, all the way from 1947!!!!! And then he got Wotan (who is like Aleister Crowley, kind of), Sky Pirate, who is a pirate but for planes, and Professor Zodiac, who looks funny, but is an Alchemist. So they do the 'super-hero vs super-villain' stuff, and the All-Stars win.

In issue 4, they go to see the aftermath of Pearl Harbor and we get a strong reactionary page, where they show the All-Stars with their jaws dropped. Even Spectre -- who is God’s angel of vengeance -- was moved. Good stuff by Roy Thomas -- really humanizing everyone. So they fight some loser named Dragon King, who maybe showed up again, maybe. The first of these evil villains who are all weird Axis Powers guys. Issue #5 were some Nazis trying to blow up the Statue of Liberty and issue #6 was some Aztec Zombie who had some connection to the Hawks and their ancient weapon/reincarnation gimmick. Honestly, it wasn’t as captivating as the first issues. Then it’s the holidays, and there’s this villain -- Baron Blitzkreig -- who is a Nazi Dr. Doom. I enjoyed his story and such. There was a lot of concentration camp stuff in these issues, and it was pretty powerful. There was a time in the 80's where DC comics was definitely looking to push boundaries.

Ok, so now we are going to get to my second question. In issue # 10, some weird alien invades the planet and takes all the All-Stars out. There’s a cool Joe Kubert cover with the All-Stars hanging on the Alien as he leaves. Robotman, Libery Belle, and Johnny Quick are all attacking him, and he’s very “whatever” about it, grasping Hawkwoman and taking her on his ship.

Ok, so get this: there’s this scientist who was Hawkman’s very first villain in the 40s. He is reincarnated too, like Hawkman and Hawkwoman. But now he’s an evil scientist because entertainment was always worried about innovation. So this evil scientist (his name is Dr. Hastor, not important) reveals that the Alien is just his creation, as is the Spaceship the Alien is in, and he’s going to take over the world with it. Simple enough, right?

In issue #12 he reveals his plan. Cover dated August 1982. Now follow this: there is this good-looking scientist who is named Dr. Napier, blonde guy, who visits Dr. Hastor and tells him a great war is coming. A great war that he can predict because he had a formula that predicts it. So this blonde scientist knew exactly the kind of world war that would happen just by using his intelligence. Still with me? The blonde scientist then gets a bunch of scientists together on a secret island, slowly having them disappear so that no one would notice. What are they doing on the island? Why, they are building a fake spaceship and creating a fake alien, which will have a fake invasion, which will then be so bad, that it will bring the world together and stop the NEXT great war.

IS THIS NOT THE PLOT TO A HUGE PART OF THE WATCHMEN? This issue was published four years before The Watchmen. Now don’t get me wrong, Alan Moore is a genius of geniuses, but this seems very derivative. I know [former President of the USA] Ronald Reagan made some speeches talking about the concept of aliens bringing the world together, but… here is my second question.

2. Is this a plot device that was used before this? Does this come from someone else? Some old Serial?

Just curious. Creators always borrow from other creators, I just want to know if this exact plot device came from something older. Thanks for reading.

That infamous alien creature from The Watchmen

Mark Belkin

Hasslein Books' Watching Time: The Unauthorized Watchmen Chronology

When Hasslein Books announced that they were publishing a new book detailing the entire Watchmen chronology, they were kind of enough to allow DC in the 80s a glimpse of their review copy so we could let them know what we thought about it.

My first exposure to Alan Moore and Dave Gibbon's Watchmen was in an issue of Who's Who (update 87, vol 4) I had bought from a flea market and was thumbing through in the back seat of our car on the ride back home. It wasn't even an entry about the Watchmen - it was about their fictional precursors, the Minutemen. I was only eight or nine years old, but that brief Who's Who article told me about teammates attempting to sexually assault other teammates, getting institutionalized or simply winding up murdered. I knew right away that this wasn't the idealistic "safe" DC I had grown up reading, and contained that grim and gritty realism that I started to realize was noticeably absent from comics. From that moment on, tracking down those issues and reading everything I could about it were a high priority on my "to do" list.  (I wouldn't actually read and/or own the entire Watchmen mini-series for another ten years or so, but I assure you that particular Who's Who entry had never left my mind since that fateful car ride.)

I kind of feel that the author, Rich Handley, can relate to my anecdote. Handley explains in his foreword that his entry to the genius of Alan Moore was via Batman (or more accurately, The Killing Joke), and it ultimately led to him sweeping up every Moore comic book publication that he could find. In Handley's own words, "I didn’t need to be hit over the head repeatedly to realize that I’d found a new favorite writer" and later cites Watchmen as his favorite body of Moore work.

The fictional universe introduced to us in 1986's Watchmen mini-series is incredibly engrossing... and criminally short-lived. The twelve issue mini-series fueled our imaginations by teasing us with hints of untold adventures that we'd never be privy to. After the publication of the mini-series there were a few Who's Who entries and several DC Heroes RPG supplements available for fans looking to piece together more of the Watchmen history, but that was pretty much it. Behind the scenes, there were a few attempts at a Watchmen screenplay in the late 80s and early 90s.    

In 2005, the DC Comics Absolute Edition of Watchmen was released - complete with additional background info on characters, notes on the original creation process and essays by Gibbons and Moore.  The Absolute Edition was simply a warm-up for the main event, however, as 2009 saw the theatrical release of the Watchmen film (directed by Zack Snyder) and the creative/merchandising floodgates would soon be re-open again for all things Watchmen (video games, comic book prequels, motion comics, strategy games, and possibly even a TV series).

This is a an exciting time to be a Watchmen fan, and it can be easy to get lost in everything that's been going on. Thankfully, Watching Time: The Unauthorized Watchmen Chronology has you covered.

Weighing in at 350 pages, this is an incredibly comprehensive and detailed guide to everything Watchmen-related since 1986. When I say everything, I mean EVERYTHING: from the creation of the 1986 mini-series up to this summer's 2016 DC Rebirth appearances (Rich Handley explains in his foreword how the DC Rebirth material was just being announced as his manuscript for this book was going to print).

Handley's collection of Watchmen material is all-inclusive and sweeping - not just content to document the film, comics and DC Heroes RPG chronologies, he delves into everything from movie tie-in video games to Andrew Salmon's short fiction. Handley dug deep through really obscure Watchmen material so you wouldn't have to. That alone is worth the price of admission.

I appreciate that the author is quick to point out a few inconsistencies between the different mediums (namely, the original 1986 mini-series and DC Heroes RPG supplements versus the video games and Before Watchmen prequel comics), but he handles it amicably and even goes so far as to point out which sources come directly from Moore himself, should you not consider certain aspects as cannon.

My favorite parts of this book included the chronological history of how the entire Watchmen concept materialized (written by Brian Cronin), the brief chronological summary of events that have occurred in the Watchmen universe, and, of course, the extremely detailed twelve-part timeline chronology of everything significant that has ever happened in the Watchmen universe (comes complete with an abbreviation key so you can quickly look up the source).

This is a black-and-white book with not much as far as images are concerned. Handley is mainly interested in content and you're going to get a lot of it in an easily-digestible format. The book is easy to read, organized in a logical method, and quick to scan through. In short, this is everything you'd want in a chronological reference guide. For visual reference, the last twenty or so pages contain a black-and-white cover gallery of the materials cited in the book.

Who would most enjoy this book? Most obviously, a Watchmen fan (such as myself). Anyone who has been reading and collecting Watchmen material for the past twenty-five years and wants to see how it all "comes together". I see this book happily accompanying the Watchmen reprint trade paperback and Before Watchmen collected editions on your bookshelf. You can find out more about how to order this book directly from the Hasslein Book webpage itself.

Additionally, with Dr. Manhattan making a cameo in DC's Rebirth event, just about anybody who wants to get 'up to speed' on the Watchmen's rich lore will also want to pick this up.

It's a good time indeed to be a Watchmen fan. Watching Time: The Unauthorized Watchmen Chronology just makes it easier to do so.

An Interview with Rick Veitch

This interview conducted, transcribed and copy-edited by Mark Belkin.

Rick Veitch is one of my five favorite creators in comic books. My first experience with Rick's work was on The One published by Epic Comics in 1984. It was mind-blowingly weird and the first "alternative" comic I ever bought. The very first issue of Swamp Thing I ever bought was Swamp Thing #37 (1985), which shared the co distinction of being the first appearance of John Constantine, and the first issue I would purchase of Swamp Thing that Rick Veitch would work on.

I thought she was going to say "Don't Stand So Close To Me".

I was very excited when I discovered he would be taking over illustrating AND writing with issue #65 (1987). Swamp Thing #65 until #87 is one of my favorite runs in all of comic book history, and if you don’t have it, please do yourself a favor and get some issues. He had this way of taking established characters and giving them a subversive and dark, psychedelic twist. There was something about his characters that were separated from their reality, something sad, but also yearning for direction. They yearned for purpose as they manically moved through the story. It always felt like there was some climax that everything twisted was building towards. Something very ancient and cosmic boiling over and waiting to tell you it’s secrets, than laugh at your discomfort after you discover "That’s kind of sick". Everything felt connected on an unconscious level and symbolism was pervasive in every issue. I wasn't completely surprised that we both shared a love for Carl Jung, and I imagine his work pushed me into that direction.

There was an unfortunate end of his run on Swamp Thing. It left me devastated and obsessed for many years. Number 88 would not come out because of behind-the-scenes issues. I dream of one day having the ability to finally release #88, and the 3 or so issues that follow, to complete the story. But that may just be a dream that will never become a reality. The loss of #88 did lead to Rick creating [King Hell Press'] Brat Pack and Maximortal, two classic indie limited series', that did as much to entertain as well as comment on the comic book industry.

Rick spoke with DC in the 80s during an appearance at Baltimore Comic Con. The first half an hour we discussed Carl Jung. This is a transcript of the second half, discussing the Joe Kubert school, his days at Epic, Swamp Thing, and what happened at the end.

Mark Belkin: What I first wanted to talk about was your time at the Joe Kubert School and your roommates at the time. Any interesting stories from living with Stephen Bissette, John Totleben, and Tom Yeates?

Rick Veitch: There are so many stories I couldn’t even begin to tell you. But we were very fortunate in 1976 to go to the Kubert school, which not only gave us the training to be cartoonists, but put us right in the geographical area where comics were made at a time when the business of comics was going through a huge transition. The metaphor I often use is that someone who was into folk music in 1962 was lucky enough to end up in Greenwich Village. When we started school, the comics business was in a state of collapse, distribution had failed and many people were saying the business was cooked. We didn’t believe it, we were just young guys who said “Yeah! We’re gonna do comics!” What ended up happening was that comics rebooted itself, by creating a more modern distribution system. A lot of the old guard had left before that happened, so the doors had opened up to us in 1978/1979. We were young guys that right out of art school got gigs with the biggest companies.

Mark: So how did you start living with Yeates, Totleben, and Bissette?

RV: We were very committed and had this great creative and friendly relationship. We knew we had to stay in New Jersey after we graduated to build our careers. So we rented a house which was sort of an art crash pad, and we all helped each other with whatever jobs we could get. Tom Yeates had the most commercial style, and so he got the first job at DC Comics, as regular artist on the newly rebooted Swamp Thing comic. Even though the house broke up I still lived with Tom, his girlfriend and my girlfriend, on Lake Hopatcong in North Jersey. Since I was right there, I would help Tom meet his deadlines. And when John and Steve were in Jersey, they would pitch in and help on Swamp Thing too. So from the start it was sort of like this communal thing. When it was time for Tom to leave the book, he suggested John and Steve. They really wanted to work together as a team, especially on a horror book. They both loved horror comics. Steve especially, he’s like a historian of horror comics, and he wanted to reinvigorate horror comics in America.

I personally at that point was not as enthralled with regular comic books, it just wasn’t what was happening. I was working for Epic Comics and Heavy Metal. I was more interested in Moebius and visionary guys like that. But Steve and John saw the potential and got into it. Both Steve and I ended up back in Vermont, so, I would help him out, just as we’d always done. Fortunes of the book were not looking good, sales kept going down and down, and it looked like Swamp Thing was going to get canceled. As a last ditch effort, DC decided the hire this unknown British writer, Alan Moore. Now that’s the kind of luck Steve is famous for. He came over to my place with the first script he did from Alan, "The Anatomy Lesson", and I got to read it. It was a revelation. Alan had created a new way to work with an artist. His scripts were insanely detailed, but so beautifully realized it didn’t matter. He wrote them like love letters to the artist, he knew everything you’ve ever done and analyzed it brilliantly. He would make light of his own obsession with detail and then toss off something like "don’t worry about all this, you don’t have to do this, do what you think is best". And you’d end up busting your ass to give him exactly what he wants because he’s so clear in how he writes his panel descriptions.

Rick Veitch and John Totleben around this time. Stephen not pictured.

So, based on Alan’s scripts, I became more interested in Swamp Thing and regular comic books as well. There was a great potential future for the art form in Alan’s breakthrough and I wanted to learn as much as I could from it. Steve started to draw Anatomy Lesson, but was running up against the deadline and I helped him out with that first issue. I did about a third of the Anatomy Lesson. And then each subsequent issue Steve would call me in when he needed me to help. Then later, when DC needed someone to do a fill in issue to give Steve a breather, I was one of the guys they would call. My involvement was really a secondary career, I had a really great thing going at Marvel, writing and drawing a creator owned series at Epic. So I didn’t think of it as my money-making career, I really wanted to learn more about this... magic... Alan was conjuring. In the process I got to know the editor, Karen Berger, so it seemed natural that when Steve and John left, that I would become the regular penciller on the book.

Mark: How did that happen?

RV: I think I finished The One and I was looking for work. I was at the DC offices, hanging with Karen (Berger) and said “Why don’t I do Swamp Thing?” and she said “No, no someone else has that.” And she called me a few days later and said “Hey, you got it if you want it”, because I guess whatever they had fell apart. So I picked up as penciller. Totleben, unfortunately, was burned out inking and wanted to leave the book. They brought in Alfredo Alcala, who is fabulous inker, but Totleben had brought this amazing element to it that I would have loved to explore. Alan also decided to take Swamp Thing in a different direction and it became more sci-fi. We started mining the golden age and silver age DC characters.

Mark: Adam Strange…

I felt really bad for Adam. As an adult, I get it so much more.

RV: We both grew up on all those early Silver Age characters, those were our first comics. Bringing them into Swamp Thing was a lot of fun and really formed the beginning of our extensive retro collaborations over the decades.

Mark: So you guys connected, and Swamp Thing has been killed by Luthor and sent through space. He comes back, and there was that issue that was psychedelic, that Totleben did. Then you take over with number 65 as the writer and penciller.

RV: Alan was becoming less and less interested in Swamp Thing. At that point he was also writing The Watchmen and [Eclipse's] Miracleman.

Mark: Which you illustrated for.

I am picturing Kid Miracleman doing horrible things.

RV: He was getting behind on the scripts for Swamp Thing, and I would call Karen (Berger), because I didn’t have a script. And Alan would call the next day with 8 pages written. Over the phone he would give me the first page and then Fed Ex the rest of the pages to me. But he was right up to the deadline for all the things he was handling. I think his main creative thrust at that point was what he was doing with The Watchmen (1986), even more than Miracleman. The Watchmen was his main thing right then.

Mark: Yeah, I imagine so.

RV: So his Swamp Thing tank was kind of running low, but the book was doing well and everyone was happy with it. And, when he left, no one wanted to write it.

Mark: Moore is a hard act to follow.

What a writer must do when following Moore on a book. 

RV: It’s hard following the best. It’s like getting up on stage after the Beatles, what’s the point? But both he and Karen decided I was the person to do it, so they kind of worked on me to consider it. Once I got thinking about it, there were all these things I could do that hadn’t been done yet. So I took it on, thankless job that it was, and I think I did a pretty good book.

Mark: Absolutely, it is one of my favorite comic books runs of all time. So at first you were doing some horror, but you really started exploring the DC Universe. You included Killer Croc, Solomon Grundy, what was the inspiration or what were you thinking at the time, that those were the elements you wanted to explore in Swamp Thing?

Croc really giving Batman the business in Swamp Thing #66.

RV: Well in the late 80’s we were all re-inventing what a commercial comic book could be. It was fun to take an old character who was stale and give them a new dimension. I was actively asking for certain characters, but other writers were doing the same. I really wanted to do Blackhawk but someone else got him.

Mark: Howard Chaykin.

RV: He did a fantastic job too. But since I was finding it difficult to get my mitts on their modern characters, I decided to focus on the really obscure DC characters that were set back in time. I crafted a story arc where Swamp Thing falls back in time, and I was able to play with the war characters, the cowboy characters, the Roman characters, and all the way back.

Mark: And of course this leads into what your interviewer’s most important moment of his childhood was, and its Swamp Thing # 88 never coming out. I was obsessed with your run, and when it didn’t come out, I went to find out why. Someone explained to me that you were not allowed to tell this story you wanted to tell, because of what had happened with The Last Temptation of Christ, and that scared Warner Brothers, so there was nervousness about putting something like that out. I stopped reading Swamp Thing, and honestly comic books in general, which I have started reading again since. Then you yourself did not want to return to DC comics. Could you talk about that for a bit?

RV: Swamp Thing #88 was planned way ahead. The basic idea was Swamp Thing meeting Jesus. DC realized it was a dicey idea to bring in a religious icon. So they asked me to write an outline, which Karen gave to our managing editor Dick Giordano and our publisher, Jeanette Khan. We got the 'ok' to go ahead, but they said they also wanted to see the script in progress. So I wrote the script, they got to see that, and we got the 'ok' again. The story itself doesn’t really do anything outrageous with the figure of Jesus, quite the opposite. Swamp Thing meets him, and gets to be the angel in the Garden of Getsemane. The main thrust of #88 was about The Golden Gladiator and the birth of The Demon. Michael Zulli penciled the book, it was lettered, Tom Sutton started to ink it. It was about a third ways inked when I turned in the cover. The cover was a crucifix with Swamp Thing’s head growing on it, with his head sort of keeled back like a suffering saint on a holy card. A very striking cover.

My comic book holy grail, pun intended.

Mark: It was my background image on my computer for years.

RV: I didn’t know this at the time, but apparently there were a couple of people in the DC offices who were religious and personally objected to that image. They went to Jeanette Khan and Paul Levitz and complained. All I got was a phone call out of the blue from Karen saying “We are not doing that issue, I need a new script in 3 days". And I said "Wait, wait. What’s going on? Whatever is wrong with it, I can fix it". I offered to do whatever it took to fix the issue. And Karen just said "No". And everyone was angry at me. Even Karen.

Mark: Angry?

Rick: I realized later she was angry at her bosses about the situation, and when she talked to me she was angry about that. I thought she was mad at me. I tried every possible ploy to get them to let me fix the script or change the cover. I actually had a conversation with Jeannette Khan, and she just was completely unsupportive. Her attitude was that I was responsible for this big mistake.

I just couldn’t win. I now wish I had been more professional, and asked for a few more months to finish a new script, and finish the whole time travel run. It’s a big hole in my life [Interviewer’s note: Mine too], I had this beautiful ending co-plotted with Neil Gaiman, who was going to take over Swamp Thing after my run. But the whole thing blew up in everybody’s face.

Mark: It’s hard not to respect someone being offended by it. What can you do?

RV: Yeah. Of course.

Mark: I know the issue that the issue will never come out, buttttt do you think the issue will ever come out?

RV: I really hope so! I would happy if it did. More so if I could finish the time travel story!

Mark: Who do I need to petition? Dan Didio? Jim Lee?

RV: Jim Lee and Dan Didio, yeah. They just did a series of other stuff they had originally refused to publish, but not #88. It seems to be the third rail of comics. The sad thing is that Swamp Thing and Abby were such great characters, I had so much more I wanted to do with them. I blame myself that the heart was taken out of those great characters.

Mark: What if #88 had come out? What if Neil Gaiman had taken over the book? Where would things have gone? Certainly would have affected my life because I would have continued reading comics, instead of just being so disappointed I just moved onto other things. I can only imagine how history would have been different.

RV: Its one of my big life regrets. Is that I quit and I didn’t finish that run. We had a heck of a great ending.

Mark: And you moved you on to Brat Pack and Maximortal.

RV: My anger at the situation powered those books. Which helped make them a success. I kind of blew the lid off of what super heroes could be.

One of the most disturbing stories I've ever read.

Mark: Well I think I could spend about 20 years talking to you, but I want to thank you for joining us today.

RV: My pleasure.

You can check out more of what Rick is up to at: http://www.rickveitch.com/

-Mark

Alchemy.